[Carl Russell]

If I put it into the Buyers Guide section it will be alphabetized. I’ll rename it Harness Shops and move it there. OK? Carl

[Carl Russell]

The wheeled arch does provide advantage by creating a fulcrum over the wheels to lift the load, which reduces friction and makes the load move easier when pushed. And as Scott describes, the “line of draft” is still from the shoulder to the log, but the line that the horse can push on is not the low one, but the higher one.

The “efficiency” that I am referring to has to do with the horse lifting from it heels to it’s shoulders. Although with the D-ring that angle of draft is maintained on the front trace, it is redirected across the rear trace, so that the horse looses its ability to actually get “under” the load, so it turns its power into forward pushing instead of forward lifting.

Because the arch is holding some of the weight this may make the work less arduous on the horse, and in fact it must be, because the horse cannot apply all of its natural power, not being able to lift as well.

Jason, I wonder if you have ever tried to move a loaded stone boat with an arch. My premise is that although the horses may “try” as hard as they usually do, they won’t be able to get their front feet off the ground and “lift” they way they usually do.

Now this is not speaking to large diameter logs that roll with the chain on top. This is where the arch really shines, because you already have a high draft, and then the fulcrum works to the horses advantage.

But this also points out the perfect example of what I am talking about. Let the log roll so the chain is on top (ground skidding), and see how the high draft affects the horses ability to move the log. Find some way to get the point of draft back to the ground and you will find that the horse can apply its power more efficiently. They will also have more confidence, which is the part that can’t be measured in foot/pounds.

The other part of the arch is the reduced friction on the dragging log. Ground skidding, you don’t get that advantage. But use a Go-devil or a Bob-sled, at which point you are back within the horses comfort zone for lifting, and I know from experience that the horses can move much heavier weights this way than with an arch.

Now none of this is an argument against the arch. Just clarifying the difference between a conveyance and the horses ability to draw weight. The arch can play a very important role in the logging operation, providing safety to the operator, convenience, and comfort to the animal, but this does not replace the physics in play when a horse must work to lift a load.

Many may think this whole discussion to be pointless, but as I watch and listen to people discussing working with horses, I have to say that there are so many people coming to this craft from a modern cultural understanding that the fundamentals of the working animal are misunderstood by them.

This is one of my pet peeves, because this stuff was drilled into my head by men who had grown up working horses in the woods in a culture that had no other context from which to view the horse. The fundamentals of the working animal were fundamental to everything they did. Modern understanding of efficiency is blurred by the concept of proficiency. When working with animals every little “leak” of efficiency adds up, and the more we understand about the way the animals work, the better we will work them.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Bumpus;11901 wrote:

…..Is posting logging jobs like this not allowed on this site ?…..

No. Thanks for posting them. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks, I’ll look into it. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Bumpus;11844 wrote:

……When I say sell which is a figure of speech I am not talking about money at all. Just talking about how a new idea you are going to use to convince me and others through simply talk so I can realise how I can make more money for my timber in the future instead of now and do you have proof that I and others can understand in proven results through figures and facts that we can look at in writing……

Bumpus, I’m still unclear about the premise of your original post.

Is it about this Site? This site is not presented as an authoritative resource to answer questions. These topic areas are included here precisely to get people to weigh in with their own perspectives to help us all understand a little better where we all are coming from.

I personally don’t measure the value of my work by whether others understand why I do it.

When we put the onus on others to somehow understand our “language” before they communicate with us, we restrict the conversation before it gets started. I know that some people try to diminish the value of other’s contributions by equating their own confusion with the other person’s inability to communicate in the chosen “language”, but this is the ineffective type of communication that leads to divisions in community.

My sense is that this poll is designed to create a sense in a few of us that we need to be defensive about our choices. I’m not sure that I endorse that objective, and I won’t participate, but I will let it progress, as long as it doesn’t instigate divisive discussions.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hey John, I have thought about it a few times. I’ve seen it on other forums. I think it’s a good idea. I’ll be glad to look into it.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Tim Harrigan;11835 wrote:

Here is a link to a report that we did a few years ago in measuring the pulling forces for a 1500 lb log over snow-covered or frozen ground and over bare ground with tongs, a logging arch and a few other methods. In our work the arch reduced the pulling force about one-third compared to ground skidding with tongs. So we could move the same load with less effort, or increase the size of the load by about one-third with the same effort by using an arch.

http://www.tillersinternational.org/farming/resources_techguides/EstimatingLoggingDraftTechGuide.pdf

I would caution not to make these assumptions. It may require less force to move a log forward with an arch, but the horse cannot apply their power as efficiently in this way, as they can when hitched loose to a log ground skidding.

There are lots of reasons why arches are valuable tools, but requiring that the draft be hitched high reduces the pulling capacity of the horse. This is often overlooked because the arch is a much easier way to hook to larger loads than ground skidding, but if the draft is low, then the horse can apply their power more efficiently to lifting the load.

There is more to moving heavy loads than mere foot/pounds. A horse will learn how to use their power. A horse that is given the opportunity to learn to lift a load while ground skidding, will learn to apply more of its power capacity to the work than when it is hitched on an arch. So even though the load may be moved easier with the arch, the horse won’t be as able to apply its power as efficiently to the task as it would if it were hitched to the log on the ground. This will also affect how much repetitive skidding can be done in a day.

The other factor of advantage to ground skidding is the ability to pull off-line more easily, to start an extra heavy load, giving the animal the ability to overcome inertia, and to move the load.

The biggest factor affecting the horses ability to skid loads of a certain weight, hitched in any manner, is how the animal is used. If they are given the chance to use their power efficiently, and given the opportunity to rest when they have pulled hard, then they will learn to pull more than anyone can calculate from some rule of thumb formula. Hitch them, drive them, encourage them, and show them respect for their effort, and you’ll find out what they can do.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I always rest the tongue on my thigh when hitching up the neck yoke. I never thought that it was all that heavy.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Bumpus;11825 wrote:

.
I am going to try to share these thoughts as polite and kindly as possible because I do care.

If I did not care I would not spend the time and effort to type this letter.

To All Who Try To Sell Others On The Idea Of Sustainable Farming, Forestry.

Remember to keep it simple for the common person to understand, who don’t know what you are trying to get across to begin with. :confused:
Also speak in simpler words to understand because most people with common educations do not understand word of higher learning in your field.

Ever been to a Doctor, Lawyer, Scientist or Chemist or a Lecturer On Sustainable Farming, Forestry who speaks in Great Swelling Collage Words, that They understand, but simply mean very little to us common people.

You know what you are talking about but many people don’t.

Tell us how your way is going to benefit us more, and be more profitable to us, instead of doing our Timber Cutting and Farming the way others have done it for many years, and Tell us by using simple everyday words and language, that we can understand more clearly.

We may want to buy your way of doing things if we understand what you are really selling.

For a more simple and more understanding way of sharing is our plea ! ! !
.

As I am not one who is trying to “sell” others on the idea of sustainable farming and forestry, I am not compelled to respond to the poll.

I will say however that I spend a lot of time discussing the issue with people who are interested in the ideas I have, and how I try to implement them. That is the main reason that those issues are highlighted on this site, people want to understand and share perspectives.

I happen to completely disagree with the premise that our discussions must be simplified for the “common” person to understand. As a homeschooling parent I strongly believe in presenting the concept in its most complete, accurate, and appropriate language. It is the attempt to simplify complex issues that creates the confusion.

I actually have no problem with someone who can’t wrap their mind around the discussion from the beginning. It is a great opportunity to continue, to understand the “language” that makes sense to that person, and to build effective communication with that individual.

As far as explaining why the way we do it is better. That’s a load. My way is better for me, because it makes sense to me. I don’t do it because I want it to make sense, I actually don’t care whether it makes sense to anybody else. My only interest is in helping others, who are interested, to understand my perspective. There may be some out there who are trying to sell it, but most of the people I know are only trying to respond to people with interest.

Effective sharing has more to do with commitment to communication than it has to do with simplifying the message.

Thanks Bumpus for taking the time to press this issue. I hope you find some useful information.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

That was John. He definitely put on a good show.

[Carl Russell]

Got it. I just was gong to post about finding it, and there you were.

You know where to find it. Come by any time, or let me know what your preferences are for a NEAPFD debriefing meeting sometime in the next 2 weeks and get it then. I hope it isn’t your only one.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I can’t recall which shoes I was putting on that day. If they are Diamonds with turned heels, I buy them all made up from Meader Supply in Rochester NH. Pulling shoes. I cut down the caulks to 1″.

If they were drive caulk shoes, I collect them as I find them. Usually use them exclusively in the winter.

Boy they could have timed that show a bit better. The day after our annual event. Nice.

Yeah, I thought it was well put together though.

Thanks, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Rod, I am also awed by the capability and cooperation of all who helped to make 2009 NEAPFD a success.

More later, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hey Aaron, good to hear from you. I hope all is well with the farrier program. We’re in full NEAPFD mode. We’ll miss you. Thanks for the post card, looks like you and Caroline had a nice trip out. Keep us up to date, Carl

[Carl Russell]

So as not to have to reiterate myself I will attach links to other similar discussions.

Log Arch
http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=1597

Part-time logging
http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=1452

Logging Arches
http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=273

I will say that there are now blue prints for the Barden Cart. I don’t have them yet, but will have them scanned as soon as I do.

My only other reiteration is that even though the Barden Cart looks small and light, which it is, this is by no means a limiting factor. I move large hitches and large logs, and the design addresses features that do limit (at least in my mind) the other heavier and taller models.

You may not want to build a cart, but my opinion is that you will have a much more functional cart in the long run if you seriously consider the Barden design.

Carl

[Author]

Posts