[Carl Russell]

I started to create a category for DAPFI. I have posted it under this private forum. I was only able to just throw together something simple, within time constraints. Can any of you see it? I haven’t gotten any feed-back on it, so I am curious if I have hidden it from everyone.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Great story. Get a single yoke and give him a try!!!

I have a big steer, Stormy, who is technically an ox because he is over 30 months of age,

Not to diminish the value of your story, technically a steer is always a steer, until it is trained to work, then it becomes and ox, when mature.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

How do we want to use this site for DAPFI?

Are we going to secure a Domain Name and then link it to this site?

Do you want me to create a Category on the open DAP forum where we can start to entertain broader community discussions?

Knowing how this site works, how would you like to use DAP to best advance our cause?

I can create a few informational pages that can act like a home page inside the DAPFI Category. Or should we just buy a blog site and create an active link to the discussion forum?

I know that many of us have blogs, or association websites, and other discussion forums, where we can post links to DAFI as a simple and non-cost way to start to spread the word.

Let’s get this discussion off the ground, so I can get a sense of what I should do at DAP.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I haven’t unearthed the link to that manufacturer either, but I think Simon Lenihan can answer your question. He is a member on here from UK.

By the way, several of us have been developing an international horse loggers association….would you be interested in joining our discussions?
I think it would be good to get the perspective from downunder.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

It looks like a good thorough resource.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Reading Jason’s post about roads made me realize that there is a potential difficulty in all forest management. Most loggers and foresters are not landowners. When considering the construction of access roads it is important to understand the forest from the stand point of the landowner. As loggers, or even foresters, we are typically interested in making the job functional and affordable so that we can complete the necessary work. Per the current discussion this often comes down to possibly purchasing equipment that we can add to our asset list, that will allow us to take on certain types of work.

The part of the equation that is of interest to me as a forest land owner (which I am) is the cost to me that the harvesting operation requires to remove my timber. Other than stem quality, the primary cost that affects stumpage value is harvesting access. In the case of animal powered timber harvesting, that is often reflected in actual added financial burden that is subtracted from the mill value of timber, and therefore affecting stumpage. In mechanized operations it is often reflected in impact caused by large all-terrain vehicles traveling all over the land. It is also reflected in the silviculture, harvesting higher volumes per acre to make each trip more cost effective.

(This touches on one of the most misinformed understandings of low-impact forestry. The more often the woods are worked in, with light thinnings, the less actual impact there is. Light regular harvests allow wildlife to continue their travel, breeding, and feeding habits, and they cause less direct damage to soils, and allow for constant review and maintenance. Conversely treating the forest heavily and leaving it for 25+ years before re-entry is extremely disruptive and impactive.)

As a forest land owner every dollar that is spent on harvesting my timber is money that I want for my own. In many typical situations this leads to operators providing inferior harvesting services. But when considering ways to reduce logging costs, access roads are extremely valuable and cost effective. By access roads I am not referring to skid roads and dirt track truck roads where a skidder is needed to haul in the truck, and two to haul them out. I am talking about solid gravel based, crowned, ditched and culverted, 4 season roads.

There is no doubt that these roads are costly, but as I stated before, these costs are spread out over many years, and they are an asset that I can attribute to the improvement of my forest land. Log trucks will not charge me the extra $25/MBF to drive 3/4 mile into my woods that a harvesting system will. So right off the top I have gained $25/MBF on all the timber accessed by that road.

I have also developed a system that allows me to use draft animals, or even small equipment, providing me with autonomy so that the value of my timber is not dependant on the services of someone who has made the investment in equipment that I have no use for. Also these roads can be used by me or anyone that I choose, for a wide variety of uses including on-site milling, recreation, fuelwood cutting, etc., which also put the expense into broader categories than just timber harvest.

Draft animal powered forestry in my mind must be about more than skidding logs with horses. I see real change coming from stewardship and land-use ethics. Landowners who get an animal powered logging job today facilitated by equipment, can just as easily decide to have machinery to do the entire job in the future. However, landowners who are educated to understand the limitations of draft animals, and undertake the types of investments like access roads, will be providing future owners and future operators with the advantages that will not only make the harvesting more affordable and functional, it will also ensure higher stumpage values.

As a forestland owner, forester, and a horse logger, most of my business has really been about educating landowners about how to manage their property to facilitate the use of draft animals. Many of my clients in fact do a lot of the work on their own land. Several of them with draft animals.

In the long run, just focusing on training and outfitting animal-powered timber harvesters will not be enough. We need to realize that landowners are the key to sustainable land-use. True, many landowners are clueless, and probably will never get it, but good work on these lands has limited longterm value without buy-in from the ones who control the resource through ownership.

Conversely, if we also see that there can be significant progress made by helping landowners to implement stratigies that can help them begin to use draft animals, and to actually do the work in their own woods, we will support our intiative through cultural example. I realize that there is a need to help non-landowning draft animal powered timber harvesters, but my true obcession is in changing land-use and stewardship patterns by educating landowners to do the work them selves.

This is not a treatise against forwarders (horse-drawn or otherwise), or equipment in general, it is just an advancement of what I consider to be a serious component to the discussion. As many have pointed out before, it usually comes down to dollars. If we do as the masses do, and work out short term fixes that avoid large improvement costs, then we also avoid discussions of long term returns on the value of those investments.

Having access that facilitates low-impact harvest also supports many other activities such as non-commercial Timber Stand Improvement. By making it more affordable to harvest lower volumes per acre, then the low grade products don’t have to be taken(tail with the hide) to increase production. Residual stocking is higher, and crop tree release can be performed in a much more surgical manner. These types of activities also increase average stumpage per acre.

Seeing the land as a landowner does, with an eye toward true income versus expenses, will be the key to a sustainable effort. People may want horses on their land, or they may not, depending on current cultural preferences, but if they are taught to endorse the type of forestry and land management that not only facilitates animal use, but also highlights the value of such methods, and can see the true longterm finacial benefits, then they will embrace them into perpetuity.

I agree that land ownership patterns are leaning toward smaller lots where these access issues are not as much concern. I do not build roads like this on every lot. On the other hand I have skidded logs on sleds as far as a half mile downhill, and as far as 1500 feet uphill on snow. I see the investment in equipment as problematic. One way or the other it will affect my operation, by adding cost.

The other part of the equation is that if the landowner bares the cost of the access, then I don’t have to create a capital heavy enterprise that at some point will compromise the way I work. By limiting myself to horses and oxen, using sleds and carts, I perpetuate limitations that translate into the type of timber harvest that I can afford to operate, and that I want to partake in. It is only limited by how well I educate the people I work for. When I need better access I don’t have to buy, or hire, a big piece of equipment, I just get the landowner to build a road.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Question 1: I have been through level 3 of Game of Logging and have a questions about there 6 point limbing system. They recommend the second cut as a push cut where the saw is resting on top of the tree. Unless the tree is waist height or higher, I find this awkward. Any insights on this?

I bend my knees. With hemlock it is pretty difficult to stick to the six cuts exactly because the limbs tend to be so large. If you make sure to take the step with the number one cut, you should be able to lower your body by bending your knees. Also try to fell the trees on benches (other trees cut across the path of the fall) to help keep the tree elevated while you work on it.

Question 2: My general approach after felling a tree is to attach my loggers tape to the but and go about limbing. When I reach a diameter of 8″ toward the top of the tree I check my tape to see the amount of marketable footage. I then go about marking out the logs based on curvature, defects, etc. I’ll then cut of sections of the tree that my horses can pull based on the conditions and go about skidding. How do others approach this task?

I do it just like this.

Question 3: I am clueless about cutting hardwood saw logs so as to maximize the value of the tree. Any books, websites, or references that deal with this topic (preferably with pictures and examples)?

I did have a government publication years ago called felling and bucking hardwoods, or something like that. You might be able to google such a book. Nothing will replace getting the log buyer to come to your woodlot, especially with logs on the landing. They should help you cut up a few trees so that you can understand the spec sheet by seeing it n action.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

As much as I support and use the combo job, it is also important to point out that when we use machinery to compete with machinery we set our selves up to continuing to compete with machinery.

The long skid adds cost to the harvest. If we address that by employing machinery, then the access will always require machinery. If we look at this as an opportunity for the landowner to turn some of that cost into an invest by making long term capital improvements to roads and landings, then we can help to set the property up to be more approachable with animals.

The added cost of using a machine in a combo harvest leaves the site with the machine. The cost of building roads stays with the land into perpetuity, reducing skidding costs, and thereby increasing stumpage values. Road investment is also amortized over long periods of time, making the payback spread out over several harvests, and the value of the road will remain with the land, and will contribute to resale value.

This can not address every operation, but it is an example of the difference in forest management strategy that I see as crucial to the continued success of animal powered timber harvest. This way animals can continue to be a viable option on a property managed like this.

Roads are excellent avenues to increase landowner involvement in multiple uses, such as sugaring, fuelwood harvest, agri-forestry, etc., which is a great way to strengthen the connection between the forest managing operation and the LO. When a LO is excited about what is happening now, as well as what can happen in the future, then they make investment not only in the land, but in the relationship with whoever will be doing the work.

I know it isn’t always that simple. Just thought it would add to the discussion.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Oh yeah, by the way you did great saving everybody and the horses. That is no small thing.

One of the best horsemen I have know was thrown from his seat on the harrow, run over and knocked out because the neighbors dogs approached suddenly from behind to attack his horses. He lived to tell about it, more than the dog could say, but dog attacks can really tap into prehistoric fears.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hey John, Sorry to hear about the incident. I stopped doing the public interface thing just for that reason. Never had a problem, but I realized I have no control over a situation where there are so many people possibly doing foolish things, and I am the one who would have to deal with the fall out.

My only feed-back is that #1 you did the right thing not hitching her there. #2 the solution lies between Dottie and you, not between Dottie and the dog. There will always be unpredictable moments that are impossible to plan for. Just keep working on the communication so she learns to trust you, and although she can be wary, you won’t lose her to the situation.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Nice cake!! But you definitely sucked me in!!!!

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Zeke;13017 wrote:

Hi Carl
I recognize those Grays! Good luck with your site.
Hi to Mark Cowdrey.
Richard Levis

Hey Richard, glad to see you on here, Carl

[Carl Russell]

HHFF is setting great examples in all of these areas. My question is not whether or not we could do it, but more about whether it would be an initiative that this group takes on. I think the work that Jason has been doing will serve as a great example.

As Jason insinuates, my background as a forester has given me an advantage at promoting my angle, which many horseloggers don’t have. It is also difficult to work with conventional foresters to get them to understand the horseloggers’ advantage.

My thought is that the membership in DAPFI could somehow incorporate an adoption of certain practices, or trainings, that could provide members with capabilities that they can use to separate them from the conventional. This would be especially functional if there is an effort to bring foresters into the fould that can work in conjunction with horseloggers in different regions.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Taylor, for me the difference is not between horses and machinery, but between the way that I practice forestry versus the type of forestry that is used to facilitate the use of machinery. Using animal power has limitations, but often those limitations allow us to approach the forest and forestry in a much different way than the forestry that is typically practiced in the modern industry. I have posted this before, this is a thread with an article that I wrote summarizing some of the details of how the use of draft animals can facilitate a different type of forestry and land management. http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=778

I wonder if this organization can help to inform horseloggers about using certain methods of forest management as a way to separate them from mechanized forestry?

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Bumpus;12966 wrote:

.
One thing about it, it is easy to proclaime the future while living in the present.

But the future is an unknown factor of speculated guesses which only those who guess can speculate at.

Only God knows for sure !
.

Very true, but there is a huge difference between vision and speculation. These visions are based on sober appraisal of the past and present, and knowing that at least for a while there will be many aspects of the present that will be part of the future. The Earth and her processes, and humans and our habits, needs, and culture are reasonable constants that we can evaluate from the past and project into the future.

Being brave enough to have vision is often what separates the survivors from the rest.

Carl

[Author]

Posts