[Carl Russell]

I am thinking hard about this. I like the example Scott posted, where categories are then broken down with suppliers names and contacts. I also like the idea of general discussion/networking around cooperative marketing of forest products harvested by animal power from sustainably managed forests.

This has gotten me thinking about redeveloping the “Market Place” category on the front DAP page. Of course we should probably put the forest products “directory” under the DAPFI category, but I am thinking about ways to use DAP to help folks make these connections around ag products as well as services.

I’ll hold off for right now, but I already have some ideas how I can construct it, but I’ll wait to see what others have to say.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Tim, I really like this idea. I know that many of us have played around with this for years, but the marketing is another career altogether. If we can use the networking at DAP to start to feel this out, maybe pull together some material, I think the time is ripe for this.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have two log carts, a bobsled, a scoot, and what I call a bunk cart. As I have said before I use which ever piece best fits the situation. Oh, and I also will use the animals ground skidding as another option.

One of my carts is a Barden Cart, and the other is similar to Jason’s Fisher arch. The Barden cart probably gets used more than any other piece because it is so light, accessible, and convenient as I can carry tools and supplies easily. I typically skid tree length with this cart, or a maximum log size of 300bf. Obviously if there are tight corners then I have to cut the log/trees shorter. On frozen ground going downhill on a straight stretch of road I have pulled 500bf in 2 white pines with 3 logs each. I also typically consider 1000-1500 feet to be my maximum skidding length, as this type of equipment is best when following the old adage ” Go light, and go often”.

The other cart is much heavier, with a higher hitch bar, so I use it similarly to the Barden cart when terrain is rough (slamming and banging), and when timber is large (I can use the cradle choker method better wth this cart).

With both of these carts I skid right from the stump, or where the tree falls, usually swamping out brush, but also I use a 15-20′ chain to reach into tough places. I really like the Barden cart’s hitching design, with a grab hook offset at the same height as a large slip hook so that the weight of the log is born perpendicular to the slot on the grab, and the chain can be released easily. I modified the hitch bar on the other cart so that the chain runs up over a 3″ pipe before it goes into the slot in the hitch bar. This way the weight of the log is born perpendicular to the slot, and the chain can be whipped, or pried easily out of the slot.

The other wheeled vehicle that I use is a Bunk Cart. This is a set of wheels that are fitted with a single bunk between them. It looks like a bobsled on wheels. The bunk is about 2 – 2 1/2 feet off the ground so it isn’t that easy to load without a boom. I have mounted a boom on a tree by resting the base of a spruce pole in the ground between root flares at the base of a tree, and chaining the top back to the bole of the tree. Hanging a come-a-long from the end of the boom, the ends of logs can be lifted and loaded. This is cumbersome work, and really only valuable for pulling long logs over very long distances.

The way that I have mostly used this bunk cart is to move tree length right from the stump. In this case I load it by forcing the wheels to roll the log up onto the bunk. If the cart is backed into the log near the butt, so that both wheels are against the bole of the tree, then a choker is wrapped tightly around the tree and hooked to the bunk. When the cart moves forward the length of the tree causes the butt to press heavily against the tire closest to the butt. By turning slightly in that direction while moving, the tire rolling forward from back over the top will lift the log, and as the log reaches the top of the tire, the cart is turned the rest of the way so that the horse are in line with the tree, and the tree is in the center of the cart. It then has to be chained securely there so that it doesn’t roll from side to side, or the cart will capsize (I know from experience). I don’t use this very often, but it is amazing the size of tree that can be handled like this. I have used it primarily for white pine cabin logs that were 38′ and 42′ long, and had a top end diameter of 11″.

The bobsled is probably my most favorite woods tool, although I don’t use it as often as the Barden cart. I use the bobsled in all seasons, for skids that are longer than 1500 feet. Even though it gives some advantage going uphill, the advantage is greater when pulling downhill. I usually use the cart for uphill skids in summer, where the sled works pretty well going uphill in winter.

When I use the bobsled, I am skidding, or twitching, logs out of the woods to centrally located brows. The brow doesn’t have to be very elaborate. I usually look for a place where there is a slight rise beside the trail that I can roll the logs onto the sled from. I will make several of these along the main trail, or throughout the stand. I also like to find a place where the sled will start easily. I prefer twitching with a single horse, but will sometimes use the team. I rarely work the stand with the cart stockpiling logs to be sledded later, but I have done that when cutting firewood off the top of my land, skid length 1/2 mil +.

When I am cutting logs, or working in the winter, I like to clean up each days’ production so I don’t have to dig for it later. I drive the team into the woods on the sled, with saw, halters, hay, and my back-pack. When I get to the brow I park the sled and tie up the horses on trees. When I have logs cut I sskid them out, loading them onto the sled as they come out. I will explain the chaining later. If things are right I can load between 700-1000 BF of softwood on the sled. The load size is dependent on the length of the logs, the variations in terrain, and the condition of the horses. If I have room I will cut a second load and skid it onto the brow. I’ll pull the first load, then load the second without having to unhitch the horses.

I am running out of time, so I will mention that I wrote an article about using the bobsled for SFJ, Fall 1999 pg. 86. If I get it scanned in I will upload it here.

I love riding a loaded bobsled in winter. There is a real feeling of accomplishment. It is the way horses were meant to be used in the woods, in my mind.

I also use a scoot to move logs year-round, but end up using it mostly in the winter, for significant uphill skids. Because it has two bunks, the logs ride completely off the ground, significantly reducing friction. I lay out the brows in exactly the same way as with the bobsled, but I usually put on a load of 400-600 BF. It is much easier to chain them on as the scoot has stakes on the ends of the bunks, and because the logs don’t drag, they don’t move around a lot.

The difference between the bobsled and the scoot revolves around runner length. The scoot runners are 12 feet long whereas the bobsled runners are more like six feet long. This is important when it comes to maneuvering around obstacles, and traveling downhill. Because the bobsled had short runners the pole is attached solidly to the front of the sled, making it more effectively steered and held back. Because the scoot has log runners the pole is attached loosely to the front of the sled, and it allows to move from side to side to allow the animals to step over to pull the sled around. This makes it more difficult to steer and hold back when going downhill. Not bad, just different. Also I can spin a bobsled around in a circle, where I have to drive around a loop to change directions with a scoot. I can also back the bobsled into tight quarters, whereas a scoot can be backed up, it is not a simple maneuver.

I also wrote an article about logging with a scoot in SFJ summer 2001, pg. 68.

Here’s poem I wrote a few years back for one of my mentors when he died.

Bobsledding Logs

It’s 4:30, quarter to five,
on a crisp mid-winter afternoon.
The sun has gone down behind the hill,
and you can see dusk forming in the shadows.

Dry powder snow covers the ground.
The temperature never got above fifteen degrees today,
but working in the sun, you warmed up easily.
Now a slight chill seeps into the dampness of sweat on your shoulders.

The team is ready,
hitched in front of a nice jag of fine straight logs.
Put your coat back on, and check for mislaid tools.
Climb up on the load, gather lines,
brace your feet, and calmly call on your animals.

As the load lurches forward,
puffs of steamy breath float from the horses’ nostrils.
You can feel the weight of the load through your legs,
as the bobsled travels over humps and through hollows.

Hooves thump and squeak,
as chips of ice fly from sharpened caulks.
From below the load comes the jingle of bridle chains,
and as the logs rasp over the frozen snow
they put forth a whine, like from a bow on a fiddle.

Feel that?… That’s the spirit in your soul dancing the bob-sledder’s jig.
” Now we’re logging”.

1998; For Walt Bryan; Farmer horse logger, family man.

I could go on and on. I may add some more, including pictures when I have a bit more time. Gotta go get a load of hay.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here is the map. It is printed on 11×14 paper, so you can’t get title/legend details or north arrow, but they are also important for clear interpretation.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Donn, this looks like a good start. I like how you describe the land. I think it is more important to measure stand density than standing volume. It helps keep the focus on how well trees are growing, rather than how much timber there is to cut.

I’ll attach the plan for our farm. It includes a lot of “forestry” terminology, and methods, but these are not beyond you, you may just need to bone up on a few new concepts.
Below are some good books that I recommend to landowners I work with (because I focus more on landowner forestry education than acting as a hired manager). They are written for the lay-person and landowner, promoting the information necessary for someone to take responsibility for stewarding their own forestland.

Common Sense Forestry by Hans Morsbach. Chelsea Green Publishing Co., POB 428, WR Jct., VT 05001 800-639-4099

Low Impact Forestry by Mitch Lansky. I don’t have the book in front of me so I can’t tell you who publishes it

Woodland Ecology;Environmental Forestry for the Small Owner by Leon S. Minckler.Syracuse University Press, Syracuse, NY 13210. If this book is out of print, I’ll lend it to you, it’s good.

A Natural History of TREES of Eastern and Central North America by Donald Culross Peattie.Houghton Mifflin Co. 2 Park St., Boston MA 02108.
This book is not a forestry book per se, but an especially wonderful book of description of all of the trees natural to our forests. I love not only the style of prose, but that these species are introduced in a way that allows you to understand them for the contributions they make to the forest and to humans.

Also, I don’t have an electronic copy of my map, but that is an important component of any plan.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

You actually cut a groove in the bottom with a chainsaw, or skill saw and chisel, and the steel straps and hook that wrap around the roll should be tight enough that they keep the rod in that groove.

You can also laminate the roll, 2-2×4’s, cut a half groove in each then bolt them together before you put the roll in place. But either way the straps and hook need to wrap around the roll to hold it together.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

George, I am preparing to respond, but it will have to wait till I have a bit more time.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Elm is very tough, but I agree with Neil about Ironwood. It is a very close relative to elm anyway, just a little harder, and stronger.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thank you Mark, I really appreciate the connections that are made through this site. I would love to cross paths with all of you.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thank you Jimbo, Robin, and Jen. Total is up to $680 so far.

You generosity is very much appreciated, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Ed, I don’t think I have a picture, but the shafts are attached to the “roll”, a 4×4 hardwood that extends between the runners. There is a piece of 1″ cold rolled steel that runs through it, with a nut on the end to keep it in place.

The shafts are attached with 1/4″ T-shaped steel straps that wrap around the “roll” up the shaft, as well as perpendicularly on the roll. Then there are 1/2″ steel rods shaped and bolted in on an angle at the base of the shafts (think the reverse of an A-frame support for a pole).

The single tree is hooked onto a hook that wraps around the roll.

I would use a set-up like this for your application as well.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Carl Russell;13257 wrote:

Vicki, the photos you posted look like you are describing chains that limit the swing of the pole on your sled. Bridle chains are actually designed to drag under the runner to keep the sled from sliding on its own.

Downhill on snow you can easily haul 3-5 times the weight of your animals. That kind of weight will push even the best team into the brush without something creating drag.

Carl

Sorry Vicki, I misspoke, I missed the photo showing the bridle chains. Interesting design.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I used 2×2 ash.[ATTACH]770.jpg” />
This picture was from a few years ago, like 23.

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Donn for the update. I’m glad to hear those guys actually amount to something down there;). I actually need to make an excuse to visit there myself.

I completely agree with your ideas about selling lumber instead of logs. That is one reason why we made the commitment to buy the Woodmizer when we built the house. I also intend to have split wood on hand for sale to folks to pick up their own.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Good points Donn.

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