[Carl Russell]

Nice paint job. I know what you can do the next time you visit:D:D:D

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Tim Harrigan;16485 wrote:

….. Carl has said more than once that he expects his teams to approach every pull as if it will be the largest pull they have ever made. That is interesting to me because it is quite different from my approach. My approach is more along the lines of ‘OK boys, you have moved bigger loads than this so let’s go’. ….

Tim’s response was excellent, and I really can’t add anything to it. I just want to clarify how I see this in the context of how hard your animals are trying.

I think our approaches are basically the same. I condition my animals to learn how to move heavy loads of varying sizes in varying conditions so that they develop a confidence.

What I mean about being prepared to pull the heaviest load they have ever pulled is that if they are just testing the load to see if they can pull it, then they are not trying hard enough. There is a difference in my mind between being big enough or strong enough to move a weigh, and having the desire to try to move it.

For the most part I focus on working loads. I craft my working situation so that I am using the power of my animals in a way that taxes them as little as necessary. This has a lot to do with maintaining stamina and keeping them confident and interested. However, especially in the woods, there are no two pulls that are the same, and there are many extenuating circumstances that can affect the required power. (Not to metion the need to actually get some material moved that makes the time more worthwhile)

So there has to be something that encourages the animals to be prepared to escalate their exertion in a measured way, but also in a way that will certainly exceed the last pull, and to some degree may exceed any other pull that they have ever made.

I see that it starts in the snow bank where Jen was with this log. Rewarding the horse for the effort… the additional effort. It is OK for him to be hesitant, because he is measuring the load, but when he saw that Jen’s intention was that he move forward with it, then he responded with more than he had before. Resting him rewards him, and shows him that his effort will be respected and not abused. Giving him the opportunity to start it several times gives him more opportunities to test whether this is the type of exertion that is acceptable, and it reinforces Jen’s initiative.

This way he will not only become strong enough to move the weight, but he will learn that he has the permission to apply as much power as he needs. In fact, that is what she wants, and that she will be there with him to continue to direct him , and help him to manage that exertion so that he won’t wear himself out.

Again, great job Jen.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Good going Jen. I had a longer response, but then i checked, and you had figured it all out anyway. That hesitant posture is a big one.

I would hitch the chain shorter. Put your hook from the evener right on the first link by the choker hook.

Way to go, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have used a gin pole set up for loading sleds and rotating logs end-for-end on my saw mill. It was a very simple set-up. I sharpened the end of a pole and set it into the ground at the base of a tree, between the flair of two roots. Then I climbed the tree and attached a chain at about 20′. Lifting the end of the pole to be about 15′ above the ground, I hung a come-along from it. (I also made one for building my house that had a boom operated with a block and tackle.)

This style only has about 90 degree movement, ie. from pile next to sled or truck, then onto sled or truck. It is slow, but steady, and it works, and it eliminates the fallen log effect that Jason mentioned.

As far as rolling logs with taper, it really doesn’t take that much to slide the small end ahead to realign them before they fall through. If rolling with chain or rope it helps to wrap all the way around at least once, so that one end doesn’t get ahead of the other. I have also wrapped chain around a log that I rolled by hand, putting the peavey hook into a link to roll frozen hardwood logs in the winter.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

TimB;16445 wrote:

… I am trying to work with the chain mostly to prevent the horse – a negative reinforcement – from turning away from certain stimuli (i.e. the pigs and the pig area), and in doing so turning me, which I can only correct after the fact by yanking on the lead line when I don’t have the chain in place. …… I am already able to use the chain with less pressure and less frequently; however, I am a bit concerned about the aforementioned distinction (conditioned response vs guidance) and want to get to a point where the chain is not necessary… Does that sound like a decent approach to people, one that will develop a leadership relationship rather than a conditioned response?…

Yes Tim, I also second what Jennifer said. You obviously have a sensitivity to your endeavor which in my mind is primary. You will rely heavily on that. More so than on any tricks, or shaved distinction we can make about terminology, or personal approaches.

That said, remember that the chain can only be used to correct, and it sounds like you have a good appreciation for that. As far as positive reinforcement, try to watch for those times when he does follow in a relaxed manner, and reward him, not by turning to codify him(not that you do, just as an example), but by intentionally releasing any control you may have on him, or the situation, and allow him to continue to follow you by free choice. Of course watch closely that he doesn’t revert, but take those opportunities to show him that you value his relaxed acceptance of your leadership.

Keep up the good work, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Stacie, measure the neck for the collar with a couple of carpenters squares held together to make a caliper. Hold one leg at the base of the throat, and the other at the base of the neck. This can be done with other methods of yard sticks etc., but this is the method I have found to be easiest and most accurate.

With those measurements you should be able to look in a manufacturers catalog, or web-site, to get the “size” range that you would be looking for. There may be certain factors such as breast plate length that will give you an indication of the size of the overall harness. I know that collar and hame size is usually a pretty good indication of whether or not he harness is in the range that you need for that horse.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Scott we just finished a job in a white pine stand, where I was the forester, and my friend Ben used his horses and his tractor powered forwarder. We didn’t do any formal report, but during our final inspection walk we spent a fair amount of time talking about these very issues.

It was a pure stand, so it is a bit different than you are describing, but it was a stand where there were many poorly formed stems scattered among good quality trees. I marked these low grade trees to release the best stems. Ben cut to length to maneuver around the stand without causing damage to the butts. It was a long uphill skid, so he landed the short-wood in glades and then hauled with the forwarder.

We remarked when the job was done, how if it had been done with a skidder they would have quit, or banged up a lot good timber. The proficiency of the skidder operation would have required that they pull several full trees at once, versus twitching one log at a time. Ben actually used his team on his log cart instead of ground skidding.

We were discussing how good it would be if someone would actually do a comparitive study, not only of production, but residual damage, as well as some evaluation of silviculture that is either facilitated one way, or compromised the other.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thank you for sharing that very touching story. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Scott G;16403 wrote:

….. I have access to equipment when I need it, mostly from keeping great friends and collaborative working relationships from the past. It’s amazing what you can get done when you pool your resources on a project…….

Just what I was thinking. I would love to work toward a cooperative ownership of some of these large cost production oriented pieces of equipment.

Rick, have any interest in selling that tri-axle?

As far as skids, I cut mine 12′ long. Sometimes I cut them from hardwood poles and leave the bark on, or I use 4×4 hardwood that I saw out. In either case I never worry about roughening them up. Sure you get some slide back, but I use my leg and hip as much as the peavey, and I can hold a couple of hundred board feet up without much problem.

You obviously have to have your wits about you, and don’t try to do too much at once, but I have done this work for nearly 25 years and can count on one hand the number of times I have had to get out of the way of a rank log.

The main thing is to use the tools in a way that lessens the advantage that the log has against you. Don’t try to stand there are use every ounce of muscle power to move something that weighs more than you do and can break a bone easily. I have worked with a lot of people who think that it will take a lot of muscle, and end up getting caught in a place where they stuck trying to hold the log with no place to go. There is a lot more finesse involved than brute force.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’ll try to attach a pic. It’s on the outside of the runner.

[Carl Russell]

jenjudkins;16308 wrote:

….go with the more rigid rabbit wire with the small square mesh (how’s that for technical, lol). I think with the typical chicken wire the openings are too big and might trap a foot here or there.

I have tried the wire bottom. The Rabbit mesh is too small for manure to got through easily. It can build up very quickly. Even using a hoe to push it through is ineffective.

We have used 1″ chicken wire, and that works better, but it needs reinforcement. If you make a matrix of roosts near the floor then they will use them instead of getting their feet caught.

My preference now, because staples come out, and wire sags, and gets full of manure, is to build a floor with 1×2’s with 3/4″-1″ gaps between them. This seems to last longer, and although it does require hoeing to clean up the manure, it actually works.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

A little clarification on my late-night post. Try to see the difference between a conditioned response, and the response of a horse that is looking to you for guidance.

The chain will create the conditions for the horse to stop the undesirable behavior, and he will learn not to do it, but it will not necessarily replace that behavior with increased focus on your leadership. This is the “subtly” part that Donn referred to.

We all use some mechanism, round pen, lead rope, or even chain to restrain the horse within acceptable parameters (physical and behavioral), but the mechanism can also become the limiting factor that encompasses a conditional response. In other words a horse can become comfortable with the parameters, but as soon as they change it will need new ones established, allowing for that “oh no this is all new to me, I’m scared” act.

When your intent is to develop leadership, it transcends all new encounters and environmental changes. This horse may have already had a lot of schooling in conditioned response, and he may be asking you to establish new parameters. This can become exhausting, and unpredictable.

If you go back to establishing a trust/leadership/focused attention relationship, those parameters will dissolve into the background, and it won’t matter what the stimulus is, you will just need to reaffirm your leadership, and he should follow you through the jungle.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Very Awesome, Thanks Anne

[Carl Russell]

I “hang” mine on the top of my peavey. I have a peavey holder, an iron strap on the side of the runner in front of the front bunk. I slide the chainsaw’s front handle over the peavey handle, and slide it down until the saw rests on the bunk. I also load my back pack, lead ropes, hard hat, safety clothes, and tool bags on there.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

The chain over the nose is an effective tool to correct an unacceptable behavior, just be aware that there is a difference between causing discomfort to stop a behavior and getting the horses attention so that he follows you without demonstrating the bad behavior.

It is good to be able to show the horse that a certain behavior will not work to their advantage, but the tendency is to become dependent on the chain (both human and horse), and not on the improved focus. Most of the exercises mentioned by folks were directed at gaining the focused attention of the horse, which should eventually preclude the need for the chain over the nose.

Tools are there to be used, and we all have a lot of tools, many of us using different ones. I only mention this because the way in which you eluded to the use of this tool seemed to be focused more on stopping the behavior than working on gaining trust and focus. Ideally it should be a combination.

Carl

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