[Carl Russell]

I spoke with Ben last night and he said that on the job this winter he could load, moved, and unload 1MBF of pine uphill 1000′ in about a half an hour. He figures his hourly rate for equipment and operator to be $80/hour, so in this instance it probably did cost about $40/MBF. This is in a 70 HP tractor with a Payeur forwarder wagon.

He also said he averaged about 2MBF per day cutting and bunching at $190/MBF = $380/day – $80(Forwarding 2MBF) = $300 / 2MBF = $150/MBF to cut and bunch.

Sounds about right,

Carl

[Carl Russell]

This speaks to a larger issue as far as I am concerned. We face it to some degree here, but it is different in one important way.

I have felt for years that these magazines walk a fine line between opening their pages to a community of people diverse experiences, and offering valuable resources. I know as much as anyone that there is no one way to do ant of this, and there are in fact many situations where things go horribly wrong, but there is something about the way these articles are presented that lends a certain level of credibility, without clarification, or without evaluation.

As Donn just found out that the article about training a green horse was part of a larger context. And there is very little opportunity for the broader community to way in on how things could/should have been done differently. Of course are discerning readers we should be able to put the information in its context, I am not sure that a picture of a poorly cared for harness, or a green horse in a pile, or a story about a runaway are always seen clearly, especially when presented in a magazine that has a reputation as a resource.

An example was an article I read years ago about a draft horse club mowing hay. There was a picture of a team standing while a few men worked on the cutter bar, while a child sat on the seat, the lines on the ground. It just is hard to see how this picture does anything good. Similarly I remember a picture of one of our preeminent work horse authorities demonstrating log skidding while standing on the live side of a log with lines in his hands.

Anyway on DAP, I feel that as a community we have a great opportunity to throw these things out in an interactive context, and not only can the author alter and describe his/her own point, but we can all participate in a process that shows very quickly how many perspectives there are. It doesn’t get us to a solid conclusion any faster, but at least it helps to create parameters to what are realistic expectations.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

My numbers are pulled out of my head from years as a log buyer for a sawmill. I know I read them somewhere, probably USFS Bulletin, or a textbook, but we used to figure softwood logs at about 8000# per thousand board feet of live round logs, pine and spruce for example, hemlock at 9000#, most hwd around 10000#, and red oak at around 11000#.

I have no real data to support those figures, and I am relying on functional memory from 25 years ago. So I’m open to education on this.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Geoff, This Stephanie had over 1000 private messages on her profile. Thank goodness I can ban and clean all in one fell swoop.

Thanx again, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanx, I nuked her today. Sorry about that, Carl

[Carl Russell]

George,
Chopping is felling, de-limbing, bucking, and clearing the logs. This would include swamping (clearing brush) skid trails.

Twitching is skidding, but typically short distances, and small quick loads.

Heading is bunching, but in a semi organized way, on a header, which to many is just a landing, but to me is a staging area. I cannot just skid and un-hitch from a log. Even if I am going to have the logs hauled by a forwarder, I know what it is like to work with limited space, and if the forwarder can’t make it for some reason, then I want my material organized. Also if for some reason I need to move the logs my self with a sled or wagon, and handle them by hand, I don’t want to untangle a mess.

I don’t see the forwarder as anything other than another conveyance to make the long haul. It does not replace for me the need to be neat and orderly. One of my pet peeves about equipment is that a lot of people want to use technology to replace the time consuming aspects of working with horses. However, I feel that it is when I take that time that I become truly invested in my work, and attention to detail ripples through the entire operation.

That is why it isn’t as simple for me to just say that the forwarder is the only way to go. I know that wood can be moved long distances with horses at a cost effective rate. I have a good friend who owns a tractor drawn forwarder, so we have been using it. Since it is how he wants to log, and since he needs to pay for it, it is on the job and being put to use.

As I said before I can see something like this working on a large piece of land with several operators, but in reality we could do the same thing with a couple of extra teams drawing sleds or log wagons. For the cost of that forwarder we could easily afford to buy 4 teams of good horses and the sleds and wagons. Four teamsters just pulling pre-bunched wood from a header could make a forwarder look silly.

I know, I know… just dreams, especially in this day when we are so far apart from each other, it’s hard enough to find 3 or 4 teams that are close enough to even think about working together, let alone 3-4 more. But that is where my sights are set.

I would love to have several choppers working on jobs for me, and I would just move my horses from job to job every couple of days and clean up their wood by sled to the main landing.

I degress…

Carl

[Carl Russell]

It is funny. There really are two types of people when it comes to horses’ feet.

There are those who would just rather pay someone else to do the work. Nothing wrong with this at all. I have a friend who’s been using horses for as long as I have, and he rarely even trims his own horses’ feet.

Then there are those who have a hard time letting someone else do the work.

Although I have done the math, and I have saved myself a lot of money over the years, I just always thought that something as important as hoof care is to the working horse in my operation, should be done by me myself.

Of course I didn’t know anything about hoof care when I started, but I have got to say that I am surprised at how hesitant some people are.

(Before I get a bunch of hate-mail:D, I’ll say clearly that I know that a horse can be ruined if their hooves are poorly cared for.)

I have cut sole to the blood, I have quicked a horse, I have driven nails that didn’t come out of the hoof wall and had to pull them covered with blood, I have had shoes pull away hunks of hoof wall, I have had horses with bruised soles, compacted feet, corns in the corners, and you name it. This is resetting shoes 4-6 times per year for 23 years, and I have yet to have a horse go lame because of any of this. (I know I shouldn’t have said that:eek:)

One reason I mention all of this is that because I did the work, I know what can happen, and I know what it is when I am looking at it. If I just paid someone else, I wouldn’t need to know. Personally I would feel vulnerable.. like I was responsible for this big beast and I didn’t know what was going on.

Another reason I mention this is because if I was afraid that I might do any of these things, or moreover, that somehow I would ruin my horse as a result, then I would also feel vulnerable, and ineffective as a caretaker of my horse. The fact is that the men who I turned to as mentors knew what they were doing, but they would scoff at that type of hesitancy. It is a result of our modern cultural disconnect from horse care, and one of the reasons why these professionals are saddled with such high expectations.

Although I rarely use lawyers or accountants, we actually didn’t even have anybody officiate our wedding, I do understand how much cost, skill, and professionalism goes into being a farrier. My choice not to use a farrier has nothing to do with whether I can get a good job done, and everything to do with my personal need to do it for myself.

There are a lot of important factors to learn. Anatomy of the hoof, dynamics of the working horse, structure of the shoe, skills and methods for trimming and balancing the foot, but these are all things that broaden the teamster’s role from owner to husband. These are all things that need to be brought to the working horse whether it is the owner or the farrier, so there is no reason to view understanding them with trepidation.

As much as I want to support good farriers like Aaron as a necessary part of our community, I absolutely believe that I also need to encourage people to seriously consider overcoming their hesitancy and learning more about doing their own trimming and shoeing.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Donn, if you get the bugs worked out and want to bring it on the road to NEAPFD this fall, Sunday October 17th may be open for just such a thing as your obstacle course.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

near horse;16946 wrote:

At the risk of sounding stupid, is the main reason to use a forwarder to reduce the amount of time/distance spent on long turns?

To increase volume per trip, to increase efficiency by hauling pre-cut (defects out) logs, and to reduce impact of dragging logs on the ground. The power hydraulic boom and grapple for handling material is also a big component of increased efficiency.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Tim Harrigan;16935 wrote:

C Can you describe the block you use, 2 part line?

I have climbing gear that I use for take-down so I have a snatch block that I hooked onto a tree using a choker chain.

I doubled over my 1″ nylon mooring line (200′ long) and ran the lines down the hill from the block, over and around each end of the log (single wrap to prevent sliding sideways) and then back up to the same tree where the block is chained. By having the bitter ends of the rope on this side of the log I could adjust the slack at the tree where we used a “cow hitch” to attach the rope ends.

The block that we used that day is just a cast snatch block that will take a rope up to an inch. It is on a swivel. We used a 3/4″ bull rope to attach to the end of the doubled over 1″rope, and fed it through the block. We had another one in case we needed to double up the advantage, but that would eat up a huge amount of rope, and it was un-necessary as the log rolled reasonably easily.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Yeah, we figured at least 3500#. It broke the bunk on my sled without hesitating, and kept on rolling.

But using the ropes and chains to roll it, and the sled to haul it out, it really took more time than effort.

Thanks Tim.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Rick, my basic formula for small wood on a quarter mile turn, would be $200/mbf for logging, so I wouldn’t be able to pay more than $50/mbf for stumpage. By the way I can pretty easily get out 1mbf/ day at 1/4 mile without a forwarder.

That being said we have been using a forwarder at $80/hour, and on a turn like that it can move about 1mbf in an hour, or $80/mbf cost. That would mean chopping, twitching, and heading for $120/mbf, and if that means I can increase production by 2x then that’s pretty good.

Based on your numbers, I’d have to agree with Mitch, I couldn’t afford to pay much more than $30-40/mbf.

I never figure logging cost based on stumpage, always the other way around. If the logging is to deliver a product, residual stand, then it has to be cost effective. I don’t know anybody who does good work who wants to work for less than it costs them.

I was just looking at a 190 acre piece today, doing a cruise to update the plan, and thinking about having a few teams working individually in different sections so that we could perhaps keep the forwarder going all day, possibly reducing the per hour cost.

I was thinking about letting each teamster cut and sell their own wood, paying the forwarding cost out of each operation, but in this way sharing the whole lot, working together in a way, and making the operation take less time. Also we could all be involved in providing a consistent product.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

TBigLug;16920 wrote:

… There’s NO reason it should cost $250 PER HORSE FOR ANYTHING! That’s insane. Figures out to about $500 an hour. …… The Amish are who we should be looking to for ideas given that they are the ones who have been using REAL horse power and CONTINUE to use horse power to this day.

I have to agree with a lot of what you say, but I have seen some pretty poor feet on Amish horses. Even though as a group they have kept alive the art of farming with horses, there’s no guarantee that you will find the best hoof care just because that is true.

There are careful and caring people, and there are shoddy operators in both cultures. The main thing is that you know what you expect from your horse, and understand how hoof care relates to that. Then whether you do the work or hire someone else, know what you expect to have as a final product, and make sure you get it.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Definitely coming to a stand-still in central VT. I didn’t tap out the bush because 26″ of snow, and there was no way I could open my trails for gathering with the horses.

We put out a dozen taps near the house, and have yet to have what I consider a good run. Yesterday was a very small run with sap that looked like it was on the verge of turning.

Way too early for this. We are sure to get more cold weather, but I’m afraid the trees have gone beyond the point of no return. After-all it is accumulated degree days that triggers metabolism, so once that threshold has been met, no amount of cold weather will reverse that. We are definitely get some colder weather this week, so we’ll have to see.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

CharlyBonifaz;16819 wrote:

sometimes they can: in a case, where the colon is hooked on the connective tissue between the spleen and the kidney, rolling is a good chance to free it up again, in fact such a good chance, that it is used (under general anesthesia) as therapy in horse clinics

In fact my horse was in a clinic, and as I was hoping that non-surgical care would work because there was no way I would be able to pay for that, they released the gas, with a needle through the gut wall, that was causing the pressure that caused the twist, and then we let him roll. It worked, and gave me four more years with him, when he finally died of the same thing. He had colic at least once every year that I owned him, while the other horse never had one symptom managed exactly the same way.

Carl

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