[Carl Russell]

Thanks Jared, I will make a donation. If the project is complete by October, make sure you come pedal them at NEAPFD.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

In fact Joe I would also be glad to get a hold of a copy of this issue and write a formal letter. I have written about similar concerns to SFJ, but have always had to limit my expenses, so I never subscribed to RH.

You are welcome to use, or refer to any of the comments I have made here anyway, but seeing as they are based on appraisal of other people’s comments, I will take the time to develop my own first-hand perspective before asking you to print it.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

No Joe, my comments were meant to be general, as examples of what there might be behind the story. I did not see the article. I was making comments that were more to the theory about how an article can reflect certain aspects that are not intended to be the focus.

A horse that is prepared to be hitched should be able to stand and wait to be hitched, without being tied or held. Tying them when they are partially hitched is asking for a tangle. In my mentoring this was driven home to me. It is no surprise to me that it ended up in a pile, and yes it may have worked out fine, but the bottom line is that the process, although practiced by many people, is unsafe, and could have led to much more serious injuries.

The back-story I refer to is not in the context of the writing, but in the cultural acceptance of certain procedures, like tying a hitched horse the first time you hook it up. There are thousands of people who think that it is OK. My opinion is that it is at best unnecessary, and at worst dangerous.

I never said that it was irresponsible for you to publish that. My point was that it serves to replicate a sense of acceptance for things that some of us think should be discouraged, and that over the years I have noticed this phenomenon in several magazines besides yours.

I realize that the product you sell is real life articles written by real life people, therefore the magazine is a reflection of what people are doing out there. In this way, it is not you who is leading people astray. I’m not sure that anyone is leading them astray, but some of us have had exposure to mentors who drove home a code that does not seem to be available to everybody.

I don’t know how to solve it. Most of the people looking to learn about working horses are not looking for a code, they are looking for exposure to working horses. It is a different culture than the one that bred the men I learned from.

My comments were not meant to demean anyone, or to try to rewrite anybodies work, only to express my concern over what I see and hear.

Thanks for your comments, Carl

[Carl Russell]

near horse;17099 wrote:

…. my point is, while not wanting people/horses to fail, it is nice to know that things don’t work perfectly for others too.

Geoff, I don’t think it is quite that simple. I mean, yes that is the message that is taken away from these articles, but what I am talking about is the underlying truth. Plowboy spoke to that when he pointed out that he would never leave a horse to stand hitched into a neck yoke. This was drilled into my head as well.

The problem was not that the horse actually moved, but that he was left in an unsafe situation that led to more than it needed to.

There is always the chance that something will go wrong, but when it is presented like that, it tends to make it seem alright, and that it may be expected, when the real issue may be much deeper.

There are many people who may think it is alright to hitch a horse alone into a neck yoke, as it may help to keep the horse in place, but if you think you need something to keep your horse in place, then you shouldn’t be walking off from it. If you do hook it into the neck yoke and walk off, and the horse isn’t ready, then you’ve left the animal in a situation where a whole lot more can go wrong.

It is the underlying practices that seem to be culturally acceptable because they are published in an authoritative journal, that can cause problems.

Take for example the young man writing about the run-away. It was indeed a tradgedy, and it is awesome that noone was hurt. He took full responsibilty for what transpired, which was the point of his article…. learning to take more responsibility for his actions, but it was not OK that the horse was able to pull his bridle completely off.

I have had horses break a strap on a bridle.. once or twice in 23 years, but NEVER pull one off. I was not there, but it makes me wonder about the way the animal was fitted with the bridle. Which is what I think the article should really have been about, the responsibility of the owners to make sure that the animals were in good gear, and to be fully aware of the details as the apprentice was supposed to be under their supervision.

Obviously chance tragedies do occur, and these could truly be just that. It’s just that there usually is a back-story, and it isn’t always that obvious in a two dimensional display.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I wouldn’t say he is “taking over your agenda”, because he is still manageable, but he has got you focusing on his behavior and on this location.

I think when we try to desensitize animals to pigs or any other stimulating circumstance then we are by default letting the situation dictate the result. When I have a horse that is demonstrating this type of behavior, I try to remember that what I need to do is to keep him working in another place, where he can begin to develop trust around a behavior that I demonstrate that is of comfort and initiative. When I take him over to the pig pen and try to wait for him to calm down, I have basically given up any opportunity to direct him, and I have validated his elevated sense of concern. There is probably a slight sense of nervousness about me because I am waiting to see how, or if, he will calm down.

When I felt comfortable that the horse was following me and was looking to me to be a re-enforcer of calmness, then I would expect him to follow me right past the pigs without incident.

I had an interesting situation the other morning in my barn. My gelding who has always been “alert”, jumped and shied at the tailgate from my truck that I had laid up against the wall by the barn door. I just stopped, and waited for him to look it over, snort a few times, and when he started to step forward tentatively, i just walked on, and he followed with no further regard for the dark monster.

Pigs stink, they move fast, and make strange noises, so there is more there for the horse to key in on, but the same parameters should apply. When he begins to question the safety of the situation, he should look to you for re-assurance, and finding you to be completely fine with it, he should decide to move on. Perhaps rather than trying to calm him, or cajole him into advancing, just chill. Don’t let him back up, or move out, but wait for that first tentative step forward, then step with him.

All-in-all, I would not give the pigs any more standing than I would a block of wood beside the trail, but if he is getting used to being agitated around them, then just go work him somewhere else. I don’t see the message to be, “there is nothing to worry about here”, as much as, “this is the way we work together”. If he is distracted when you are trying to work with him,they you are saying “this is the way we work together….with you distracted”. I don’t think that is what you want.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

TimB;17107 wrote:

…..The one in particular will still get tense and not want to proceed in certain regions (particularly near where our pigs are), but he does eventually go forward after being worked on (whether it is walking in circles, working on getting him to lower his head or hooking the lead-chain over his nose)…….

Tim, when he does go ahead with you what is his demeanor like? Are you having to deal with this resistance during a time when you are intent on passing, or is it during training exercises?

I ask because my experience has been that horses can quickly catch on to how you respond to their behavior. If he figures that he can lead you into getting distracted from walking past the pigs…. you end up fussing with him, walking in circles etc….then he has found a way for him to assert his own initiative over you.

I wonder if he eventually walks by with relative calm, or is he still making you cajole him. This is where I think it is important to break away from an “agenda”. If he can predict what you are going to expect from him, then he can find ways to interfere with your intent, and take over your agenda.

I find it really important to let yourself go completely, and be prepared to change on the fly. This will mean finding completely “free” time, but if you can see those instances when he begins to tense, preparing for what he has determined will happen, then change course.

This is an aside but the analogy is perhaps a little easier to understand. When you train a horse to pick up their feet, you can’t expect them to hold it up for very long. In fact most horses will want their foot back reasonably quickly. If you let them pull it away, then they will learn that they can, or are allowed to. However, if you figure out how long they are willing to cooperate, then release the foot before that, then they will begin to trust you, and the length of time you can hold the foot can be increased.

So even though it seems really important to get that horse to go past the pigs in a relaxed manner, continuing to give him the opportunity to distract you while you are leading him, is only reinforcing the undesirable behavior. Divert the horse before he actually begins anticipating the place. Practice leading him for long periods of time in a relaxed state. That is what you want, and keeping him in that frame of mind is not only what you want, but it will be a reward to him. He will begin to understand that you are a good leader because you are keeping him in a comfortable mindset, AND he will begin to respect you because you are finding ways to distract him from interrupting what he thinks you want him to do.

Sometimes it may seem counter-intuitive to avoid the place where the problem is. We are so task oriented that we focus on where the problem is in order to fix it, but in some ways it works a lot better to focus on where the problem isn’t. But to do that requires a lack of commitment to the specific task, but an overall commitment to finding the solution whatever it might be.

I understand that many people have these experiences with pigs, some have them with cattle, some with railroad tracks, bridges, etc., but the reality is that the problem is not with the situation, but with the working relationship. The horse has every right to be alert, or maybe even nervous, but they need to learn to overcome that and to focus on the leadership of the teamster. We can’t hand them a contract that spells that out, so we have to find ways to explain it in their terms.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’ll post this twice. Here is a You-tube video that aired on ABC news.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moNTnDmygm4&feature=player_embedded

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here is a nice clip of the whole project.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moNTnDmygm4&feature=player_embedded

[Carl Russell]

jac;17083 wrote:

Ah.. but will there still be the “elite” after oil ????? is their so called wealth not built on the back of cheap oil ????
John

The future elite will have their wealth measured in cubic yards. As in My manure compost pile is 4500 cubic yards.:D

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Joe, it is good to have your perspective. I hope that you will also see from these posts how these things can get interpreted from the outside looking in.

There is a certain amount of courage required to publish articles that reflect individual experiences, and I know that we all appreciate that. It is also important that we get real life information.

It’s just that at some point we all need to raise the bar, so that people are encouraged to take it to another level, clean their harnesses, fit them correctly, demonstrate safety, strive for improvement. As I said, it is great to know that we share so many experiences with others in our community of interest, but at the same time magazines like RH and SFJ have such impact on people that some editorial critique would be extremely valuable.

I realize that doesn’t sell magazines, but in the interest advancing the practical, safe, and professional use of draft animals it would be great to add something so that we don’t just acclimatize people to a low common denominator. I know that isn’t your, nor Lynn’s, intent, and I know you can’t control how people interpret the articles you print, regardless how much good info they have, but there is an element of this that happens.

Thanks, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Please add your information here.

Thanks, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have tried to tap yellow birch before, but I tapped when I tapped the sugar maples, and it never ran. I have been told since that they don’t run until after maples are done running. I would love to hear how you make out.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Froze here in Central VT also, but red maple twigs are pretty bright and the buds are starting to swell. My neighbors with roadside taps have taken them all in. Wood lot sugar-bushes may be cool enough to have a few more runs.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

LStone;17010 wrote:

Zactly. So then I am not nuts.

….. But did I let it go or simply find a way to convince him to adopt mine? I am having trouble understanding that part of it. I think when the agenda of the animal and the human merge together, a team partnership begins. Am I wrong here? Doesn’t an agenda have to exist to get anything accomplished? I will re-read the thread on that subject and post my Q’s on it.

….

Larry try thinking about it like you entered a place where your energy became attractive to him. You are right that an agenda does become necessary, like a plan, but if the agenda is the focus a lot of times the energy can get so intense that it isn’t attractive to the animal, and then the agenda cannot be met. If the energy is the focus, the connection, then the agenda has a foundation.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Larry, this is the difficulty in this artistic process. People really cannot describe some of these things, we have to feel them. Once we feel the changes, then we can develop the body memory to change our habits. But until we actually feel it, it is only a vague concept. And sometimes this type of behavior change doesn’t come when you are trying hard, rather it will sneak up on you, making it even harder to realize how you got there. But a big part of it in my mind is being present, and in my estimation that is what you described. You felt yourself disassociating from all “agendas”, or other distractions that you may normally carry around with you. Watch out it can be addicting:D, “he says 24 years later”.

I often describe these break-throughs like water eddying behind a dam. For a while there is still some feeling of movement as the normal flow is only slightly modified, but as more water builds up there is a stagnation that occurs, and then there are little breaks and dribbles here and there, until one area begins to flow more and more, and then there is a flush of new energy as the dam decays and everything moves on downstream.

Carl

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