[Carl Russell]

I was just thimkimg the tack could be worth over $1000…. I have no opinion on the horses…. On the surface they seem aged, but $1400 for the horse flesh is pretty low dollars for two. But probably too much for a headache.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Mark, how did you come across it? Recommended, or just in your own searching?

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’m all for free horses, but $2400 for two horses plus harnesses and saddles seems like she’s in the ball park. Not the team, or time for me, but those are the kind of deals that catch my attention.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Lots of great perspectives here.

I like the looks of the halter/bridle, but I share the concern that it could break, and then no control.

I have not used hatters under my bridles for more than twenty years, and have never had a situation where I felt that would have made the difference, including wrecks, and spilled horses, where both had to be unharnessed to be freed, righted, re harnessed, and re hitched.

What I say is that I believe the safest way to tie a horse in the woods is unhitched, and with a halter, under the bridle is your choice, but what I do, like Brad says, has much more to do with the degree of risk I am willing to take in my daily work.

I use the hitched to a load, or tree method, because my horses will stand until I pick up lines…. Is that fool proof? No. I have hitched a single horse, and team by the evener to a choker on a tree, and never had a problem. Is that fool proof? No.

I used to drink and drive, and 99.9% of the time I had no problem, but the night I crossed the center line at an intersection was the worst night of my life….. But I did have to live with my choices. I have had incidents with my horses that I was not proud of, and may have made better choices….. And have had to live with the consequences.

I have had horses that I would leave standing next to the pole while I skidded logs to the sled with the other, and I’ve also had wanderers. I do often carry halters and ropes with me, and if I get concerned about the risk, I take the time to put the halters on and tie them off.

Sometimes we don’t know what the risks are that we are facing until we experience them. Just be prepared with some reasonably fail-safe system at your disposal.

As far as deep snow…. I have spent days breaking trails in deep snow all to get out a couple hundred feet…. Which only reinforced to me the value of having many things that need to get done. However, laying out trails that go to the back of a lot will work all season long, as does traveling trails that are yet to be worked on. Felling trees toward the trail will make for a lot of brush to clean up, but sometimes the bole, and subsequent skidding, will pack down access to areas without having to bull through, by traveling where you felled the tree.

A few years ago I bought an old JD 1010 crawler specifically for clearing trails in deep snow, because we seem to be getting late-loaded winters, with huge accumulations that just can’t be competed with.

I just love being part of such a diverse and experinced group of folks who can compare notes about this. And I do remember Mr Ilsley. Horses used to come dime a dozen, and I knew quite a few older guys who figured the horse will either learn or hurt themselves…..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I often hook my team, or single with a choker, either on the cart or from an evener. This does have some risk for sure, but I have not personally had a choker come unhitched, though I have witnessed it happen with another team.

I started doing that as my horses are trained to stand with no contact, and being attached to a tree gives me some security that they will not end up under a tree I am falling. I will often cut a hitch, hook up, skid out onto the trail, stand the horses and go back to it another hitch, leaving them hooked standing in the skid way. That way I can get into a rhythm of skid, hitch, stand, cut.

This does not answer the real question about tying off. As you found out it is not a good practice to tie off horses while still hitched in harness. I do not keep halters on when in harness, but will unhitch from the cart, separate the horses, unbridled, halter and tie off. This often seems like too much for some folks, but it really only takes a few minutes, and really is the safest way to tie off in a working situation.

Also, we have had another thread recently about these clips catching in horses’ mouths. I use the old style downward facing holdback hooks, but it seems that others are using these side facing spring clips. I think it makes sense to use a different neck yoke with downward rings and hooks.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

As a disclaimer to my comments, my personal experience was that between Veterans benefits, In-state tuition, grants, and work study, I came out of UVM with a degree and a few dollars in my pocket. I then moved back to land that my family has owned free and clear since 1940.

One of the challenges I see in this discussion is related to value and commerce.

College tuition is out of balance with the potential income from just about any field of study. Using government funds to reduce that cost does not address the fact that institutions have fallen into the trap of vying for commercial market-share.

We also depend on this concept that farming is a business (like any other), and that to be successful one must capitalize and compete for market share.

Food, land use, and education all fall into a complicated mass of social values as well, and by relying on straight line economic theory we have denatured food, destroyed land, and changed education from enlightenment and capability into accreditation.

When the government steps in to relieve debt, we continue to save our consumers from the discussion of the real value of food, land, or education. Moreover we protect the economic interests of financial powers to keep folks chasing the dollar, and incurring debt, which in turn is attached to business ventures, land, and personal endeavors. And watch how the organizers will use accolades from such an initiative to further their own objective to gain market share.

I have more faith as I meet more and more young folks with everything from art history majors to small ag-program experience, and witness the ambition and knowing-ness about their desire to work in the soil, and with animals, that these folks will turn this around.

Sure let the Government forgive a few debts. It will last like every other “good” program. In the end it may confuse the situation for a few people over a few years, but eventually food, and the land it is grown on, and the social wealth of educated citizens will have to reattain the true value they represent to us.

Meanwhile the force of enervated youth on their way to the land is real, and in my mind it will not be made or broken by the existence or absence of a government program.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

While the specifics of cattle behavior may differ slightly from horses, the general task of being a teamster is the same. Donn’s points are very good.

As far as switching sides, I can’t answer that without trying it. I have recently been absorbing the reality of being a seasoned teamster…. That while I have a bag of tricks, I still have to start at the same place as the greenest novice. I have no idea what will work, or how they will respond until I try something and watch the results.

I do know however that if I just have to raise my goad to get a steer to jump I’d like that one off. The nigh can get tuned up with the butt of the goad in the ribs, or something subtle and easy and hidden from the quick one.

Sometimes it can seem pointless to work on such fundamentals, but creating obstacle courses is a great exercise for both animals and teamster. A few weeks put into a set of make believe tasks will grow into work related tasks of the same nature, and before long all work will become a training obstacle course. The point I like to make is that it isn’t about the work being done as much as it about having responsive animals. Focus on having the best response you can get, and the work will get done.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I would try some work that challenges them mentally. It may seem like simple work to take a 2 mile walk…. because it is. I think he is too smart and clearly is focusing on getting back to his feed. I think you will wear him out more in a short challenging obstacle course, or some variable exercise during a work session.

The other thing that comes to mind is how the other steer is behaving. Is he lagging, or showing some signs of disregard for your driving? Your dominant nigh steer may be just getting all of you attention, and the off steer is taking advantage of that, so the nigh one is pissed at him, or uncomfortable with the situation.

Also, I found that I put the hot steer on the off side so I could attend to the less dominant one more overtly. Reaching over a hot steer to tune up a lagging off steer sometimes is a very hard thing to do without over stimulating the nigh one.

Work, work and more work…. Find a real project to do, and your attention to the details of the work will be a good thing for them to see. If you are just along for the walk, they see less reason to follow you.

Keep up the good work, Carl

[Carl Russell]

So, I know I will find a solution that works for me. Donn has, and the rest of us too. Do we all just continue to work this out individually, or do we actually make some community effort to use resources like Mitch and Michele describe? I don’t know, I just throw that out there.

I have full faith in the description of the future that Kunstler shares, but there is also a huge leap of faith and fantasy in there that folks will just pick up the lines. Somehow there is going to have to be an exchange of knowledge, and absorbing, application, and reflection.

I spent some time yesterday with a young novice teamster who is working with some seasoned horses that belong to his mentor, and at the same time working with his own horse that has some issues related to trust and communication. I personally cannot think of a better situation. It is a great way to directly experience the reality that describes his skills versus those of his mentor, and at the same time to experience the differences in the animals’ behavior.

Two experienced teamsters and two novices-in-training standing in the yard of a barn full of tested horses, while one novice demonstrated the challenges he faces. A whole lot of honesty, and a whole lot of responsibility was on the table. In that situation every one of us could see the tenuous nature of our craft. The mentors measuring our words, holding back from taking lines, and accepting just how little information we really can impart.

The truth is I can run off at the mouth pretty well, but at a certain point I could hear myself sounding like Charlie Brown’s teacher. The other truth is that I am just as perplexed by the behaviors that I observed. They are not my lines to pick up, but in reality I would have to start at ground zero with that horse too, try something, read the result, try again, and so on, so everything I said was basically theoretical.

As Donn suggests, it is a balancing act. Both things must be taken up simultaneously. Most of us have good horses to work so the habits can be practiced, but how much of what we learn comes from practice, and how much really comes from mounting the challenges that pop up unexpectedly. Most novices come to this point one way or the other, basic skills applied to real life situations. Even after nearly 30 years, I face the same reality.

Actually I could make it work financially to go out and buy a seasoned team. The price issue is real, but more important is the fact that I want to push the envelope. I want to challenge myself. I want to build my skills, and keep myself fresh. I want to spend the time to build the horse I want, and I want to set an example of how fluid the craft is.

I am looking to transition to younger horses. This is the right time for me to do it. The first generation of horses stayed here, they are still here on the hill, which is a powerful thing, but I outlived that situation, and plan to go through a few more transitions myself. These transitions are the reality of sustainable use of animals as power. If my seasoned team can be of some use to others when I get a younger team started, then this may be a model that can be useful to the broader community.

Building the fabric of the community within which we can share the mechanics of these transitions with beginners is going to have to be part of it too.

Thank you for being here, Carl

[Carl Russell]

No Tevis, that is at the heart of it. I am not going to rehabilitate enough horses to make a dent, but I think we all can. I also think we can create pressure on the industry, but I think we have to adopt a slightly different mind-set.

Horse power was at its heyday at the turn of the last century. Horse came a dime a dozen on boxcars. Cattle were taken from the field as grown steers and put in the woods. There were no doubt breeders who provided top of the line animals, but they focused on conformation, and carriage, soundness, and application of body types for work.

During that period, even urban folks were familiar with the working horse. No one was going into a horse market looking for turn-key animals…. And even if they existed, there was less emphasis on that value because everyone who worked animals knew how to build the animal they needed for the tasks they needed to accomplish. We’ve all heard horror stories, so we know that not all were good careful animal husbands, but I don’t think that “training” really had a market value then.

My post, like most, has many layers. You all have hit on them. I’m sure there are a few still to be shown, even to me. Though I am looking for horses, and I am aware of the rescue, I wouldn’t need to post anything here, other than he fact that I wanted to stimulate a discussion among the community.

I truly do not believe that “training” actually sticks to horseflesh. Basic groundwork to introduce an animal into trusting relationship with human leaders, the development of awareness of guidance communication, and exposure to human intention and all of the accoutrements (harness, equipment, etc), make up the primary value that all animals should come with. Beyond that,,it comes down to the operator. You can spend $6000 for a team of horses today that could go to hell in inexperienced hands, so why would I (presumably with quite experienced hands) pay that much for the same team? Clearly I cannot buy whatever the previous teamster had in common with those horses. I must bring that with me.

Among the many points I am trying to make is that as we regain our sustainable community of draft animal practitioners, we also need to regain the culture. Right now we are working within a modern perspective of commerce, where the buyer looks to buy as many attributes as their money will allow. That may work with computers, washing machines, and automobiles, but it doesn’t apply to animals (nor seeds, or land for that matter).

It really is not enough to hitch animals into working situations, we should be seriously considering how our work elevates the craft. We are doing that for sure, but putting onus on breeders and sellers to format the animals appropriately will not be as effective as enlightening our peers to the responsibilities of effective horsemanship. I have a dear friend who has been in search of the perfect team for a decade, and remains horseless today. The perfect team comes out of your heart, mind, and hands.

I am in search of youthful vigor. Maybe because I’m starting to ache in ways that I have been pretending would not happen….. But more likely because I explode inside when I feel the connection developing that allows me to guide a wholey separate creature into my mind’s eye, and funnel their energy into my endeavors. I am in search of another opportunity to share with my community how we can separate the communication from the training/conditioning. I am in search of a culture that recognizes that a horse doesn’t want to pick up its foot, or stand, and should want to run away from us, and that horses that end up living an unproductive life because of those tendencies are not the ones at fault.

Anyway, I have had some interesting offers since I posted this here and on FB. One includes the offer of a gift of a valuable horse that could be used to trade to another for a young pair of purebreds from a renowned breed of work horse. The search continues.

Please continue to contribute to this discussion.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Donn you pretty much nailed it.

Ed’s post really made me think back a bit, which was not really where I wa coming from, however I have never brought home a “broke” horse.

The first horse I bought had been a project for some guy that loved to watch horse pulls. Someone convinced him to buy a big horse, but he was always too busy doing something else. The horse looked good, and was easy to handle, but knew nothing. He was not a renegade, but I had to teach him everything…. As I learned it. He turned out to be a fantastic work horse.

My second horse had been worked, but by somewhat misguided back-to-the-landers. She had been resistant, and they sent her to the neighbors who hooked her into a sap sled, and when she got hung up in the brook, took the two-handers to her. She was angry, and not cooperative, very distrustful. She was probably the horse with which I learned the first of the biggest lessons. I knew I could do it, but was ill informed and impatient, but persistent. It took me a few years, but I really did learn how to show a horse that I was trustworthy, and she worked for me for 21 years.

Third was a 3 month old Brabant stud colt. Butter in my hands. Started playing with him right away, and the horse never knew what hit him. He just grew up in communication with me. He really showed me how the horse becomes an extension of my body, and the manifestation of my intention.

I bought the bay gelding Ted as a 3 year old. Green, barely halter broke, and kind of nervous. He is thirteen now, and working with interns. Not the most ardent worker I have ever had, but generally a good solid contributor.

The blind blonde mare is the only horse I have bought that actually had some foundation. She was 4 years old when I got her, from a 14 year old young woman who had started Parelli work with her. She didn’t know work, or harnesses, but she had a very solid foundation of momentary communication. Even today as dead blind, she is probably the most responsive horse I have ever driven. She is thirteen and in great shape, but I am skeptical about how much more challenging I can be with her without getting into trouble. She does amazingly well in the woods, but obviously I have to be entirely responsible for seeing for her. I will keep using her to some degree, but I cannot utilize her full physical capabilities.

The other 13 year old mare I have now had a great foundation put under her by a renowned horseman from the northeast kingdom, but she had been a pasture pet, and allowed too many habits over the last ten years by her last two owners. She basically became very spoiled, resistant, and was running away in harness. She has come around nicely, but still has a way to go to regain her trust during work. She is powerful, and motivated, so she is fun to work, but she is definitely not a horse that I would pass on to someone else at this point.

When I started working Kate and Ted as 5-6 year olds, I quickly felt the youthful vigor, as I had been regularly working a 15 year old gelding and a mare in her upper 20’s. At that point I decided that I would make an earlier transition with these horses. Because as I listed above, I want to be able to keep working at a certain level without having to stop to shift gears. I had four horse, two old, and two young, but when in harness they don’t average out. You basically have two old comfortable horses with reduced capability, and two horses with vigor that require more guidance. (Like Brad described)

Clearly this is something we all think about, and as a community looking to support the sustainable use of draft power, it is an important consideration. I don’t have the room, nor work to support any more horses than I have. I cannot wrap my head around the management of stallions and pregnant mares (not from an intellectual point of view, but from a practical standpoint). I also have seen enough horses in harness to realize that I will do best if I set out to build my next team, regardless of their foundation. I also have not really gotten to the point where I can just go throw down the cash to buy a pair of 4-5 year old horses in today’s market. But at the same time, the time required to get 2 year olds really will be a cost of distraction, not to mention that perfectly sound manageable young horses are nearly as expensive as broke ones.

So I am just in the formative stages of trying to visualize this transition. I know there are horses out there that are too much for their owners. Unfortunately many owners in that predicament don’t admit it until the horse is around 10, and I would like to get back closer to 4…….

We’ll see where it goes from here, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Come on Mark, you have more to contribute than that…. 😛

[Carl Russell]

Great Kevin, it doesn’t happen by itself. Someone has to seed the clouds of discussion.

Hey Alison, welcome to Jersey steers. If you want to work cattle you should wear sturdy work boots. If you want to work Jerseys, put on sneakers.

That is a fact, but you can slow them down over the long haul through regular work, but once they get into the habit of moving out, they will continue. Make your workouts longer in time. Challenge them mentally with obstacle courses, lots of stops, and turns. Young draft animals will get tired faster from mental challenge than they will from physical exercise…

Carl

[Carl Russell]

That is it to some degree Donn. I know from experience that at some point I will be looking for more power and stamina from my team than they will have. At that point in time I will want to transition. In the past I have buried my horses after I pretty much used them up here.

There are some amazing attributes of a well seasoned team, but balanced against the retirement costs of an aged team that has past their resale value, I am more interested in moving these animals while they are in that sweet spot. Especially since there are so many people looking for horses like that.

Most people do not want to work green horses. Many horses go unworked, or develop behavioral problems that end up limiting their effectiveness. When looking for a replacement team I am astounded by the cost, and I know enough about horses to know that I will need to build even the best tea, from the ground up. Basically good horse flesh is more valuable to me than the supposed ground work.

My objectives are not to get horses that are trained to conditioned response, so I usually need to break that down, and start over with creating a more momentary communication…… So rather than trying to negotiate the ads for perfectly broke horses, I am looking for horses that clearly and admittedly have no conditioning…..and therefore are more affordable, or free.

Mark, as far as getting older and wanting younger horses, the more I know about horses, the more I enjoy the youthful vigor, the available power, the spunk. I use horses like an extension of my body…..fleshing my will through the reins(Berry)….. And while I enjoy being able to look back over my shoulder at the log, or watching the soil roll up against the potatoe plants with barely a conscious thought toward the horse when using my older horses, I also am elivened by the power I can direct, the vitality I hold in the slightest grip when working young ones.

Carl

• This reply was modified 10 years, 5 months ago by Carl Russell.

[Carl Russell]

There are several reasons for these thoughts. First is, the older I get the more I want younger horses. Second, if I can get the young horses I want, then I want to be able to move my current team while they are still young enough to bring real value to the new owners. I am in the beginning stages of formulating this change, and I have a lot of work fog this team to do while I build the new one…..

[Author]

Posts