Forum Replies Created
- AuthorPosts
Brad Johnson
ParticipantTom-
Nice looking team and work there. Following up on Rick’s comments, I have never had the chance to work on a mechanized, production operation, though I have done some work with small machinery paired with horses. I have no interest whatsoever in being part of high production process that you describe, and I totally agree with you about horsepower being an effective management tool. I am always striving to strike the right balance of good woodlot management and enough production that I can make a living doing what I love to do in the woods. I have found that my work with Bob Capobianco, using two teams and small tractor with a winch and forks allow us to accomplish both the ecological and economic goals in the woods. The most important end result I can provide is a healthy and valuable residual stand that will serve the landowner for years to come.
-BradParticipantI have had no trouble shortening my biothane front tugs. A good hacksaw, with a large nail and propane torch (to put new bolt or rivet holes in) is all that is needed for the alteration. Small hex head bolts work just fine if you can’t find the rivets, just put the bolt head on the inside and cut the end of the bolt on the outside short after you tighten the lock washer and nut. And, I made the same change on the nylon harness we used in Maine with no more trouble. The end does fray a bit but some heat melts the loose strands back together just fine. This adustment really makes a big difference, though the end does not look as nice as when I started.
-BradParticipantMark-
We used to run two beef calves, a doz or more sheep, and up to 10 pigs in the same small pasture paddocks, rotated every day or every other day. It worked really well, except when the pigs got big. At that point, they shredded the pasture so we put them in a separate pen, but they did great for most of the pasture season.
-BradParticipantPeyton-
I am a farmer and logger in central VT, horse powered here at home and in the woods. I do not own any of the land I work on with my team. Like most commercial loggers, I work on other folks’ woodlots, but animal powered. I do some work with another horse logger who has a team and also a 45 hp Kubota tractor with a winch and bucket forks. Our operation is small, but I make about 80% of my annual gross ($60,000 or so) from horse logging and in our area there is so much work that I cannot get to all the lots that are on my list. I have only been at this work (commercially) for about 7 years, and for sure I don’t have it all figured out, but I think some of what I do might shed some light on your decision making process.To start with, you will not make a lot of money doing just about anything with horses, but you know that already. However, it is possible to make a good living wage with animals in the woods in this area anyways. Beyond the fact that I love working with animals in the woods, one of the most appealing parts of the business is the low cost of investment to get started. Beyond my truck and trailer, the total cost of every tool that I use in the woods (horses, harness, arches, bobsled, chains, saws, peaveys, gas cans, etc.) is well under $10,000 – not bad considering what is costs to get started with a skidder or other mechanized equipment. I keep my costs low by doing my own repairs and shoeing, and I often barter for work that I cannot get done myself. I do have to buy in hay and grain, and it costs me about $5.50 per day to keep my horses.
As Rick stated, I get about 200-225 days a year in the woods, no more. I try to average at least $200 a day in gross. I do some work by the hour, $40, but this is fairly unusual. Normally, I use modified stumpage or charge by the thousand based on mill totals ($175-250/mbf). I work with the landowner and forester to make the finances work for all involved. The real art of it in terms of finances is understanding which jobs make sense and which are not appropriate for horses. I am still learning how to make these decisions, and it definitely gets easier with experience. Factors such as slope, skid distance, moisture levels, time of year for harvest, and timber value all play in significantly in terms of whether or not I take a job. I now have enough work that I can turn down those jobs for which horses are not a good fit, though I the beginning that was harder to do. I try to average 1-3 mbf a day on my own, and more if there are two of us on the job with multiple teams and the tractor.
You wrote about trying to decide about buying a skid steer for your operation. I do like the skid steer for work on the landing, but I think a small 4WD tractor with a winch and forks is a superior tool. We pile our logs with the tractor, or by hand on jobs I do on my own, and this tool saves my 20-30% of my total time (little to no peavey rolling on the landing). This makes a huge difference, and more than pays for the operating and maintenance costs on that older machine (1998). Also, in some cases the best method for getting a log from the stump is the winch. Once the initial skid is done, we can use either the second team or the tractor to forward multiple logs to the landing. If possible, every horse logger should have access to some sort of machine, at least for work at the landing. It makes a huge positive impact on our bottom line. I know I will get some objections from others about using a tractor in the woods, but we have proven that this pairing of animals and small machinery works well economically and produces superior results in the woods.
An another note, I would not advise you to get additional horses at this point. I have had good luck with just one team, and still do lots of work on my own with this one team. The costs of keeping additional horses really add up throughout the year. Also, in terms of a trailer, I use a small bumper-pull (16′ on the floor) that allows me to transport both horses, my arch, and all my tools in one trip. It is good to get one that is extra wide (6’8″ or so) so that you can roll an arch or cart in along with the animals. A small trailer is lighter to pull, more economical to buy and maintain, and allows me to get into small, tight spaces (which are the norm around here).
Hope these thoughts are helpful. If you ever have a chance to come out for a visit, you are welcome to come see us in person. Good luck!
-BradParticipantPeyton-
Rather than going three abreast on narrow woods trails, I would hook a single or another team in front of the sled team. You would need two drivers, but this works quite well with experienced horses. Run a chain from the lead team evener back along the pole of the sled and attach to the same point the wheel team’s evener is hooked to the sled. Use some small straps or bungee cords to keep chain up against pole so that wheel team does not step on it or get caught up. This system works great with arch as well…
-BradParticipantReva-
I would second Rick’s comments on the DR. Carl uses this tool as well for pasture management, and it seems to work well. I use a old sickle bar behind my team, and it works OK when grass it not too thick, and then I also borrow a neighbor’s tractor and rush hog when things are sticky. I would like to have a DR.
-BradParticipantGeorge-
Over the past six years or so of working in other peoples woodlots, I have used various forms of payment – by the thousand, hourly, by the cord, and, stumpage. I think the key part is exactly as Carl describes – the most important part of the operation is what we leave behind in the woods. To some extent, the payment system does not matter as long as myself and the landowner (and forester if there is one involved) are all on the same page. Stumpage can be challenging, particularly when the landowner is deadset on getting the maximum value he or she can generate; when this is the case I usually pass on the job. I have been working off stumpage recently and it has worked really well. The landowner clearly recognizes that what we pay is less than what she could get from a mechanical operator, but the results on the ground are far superior. I think that a big part of my job is to help landowners see the difference!
-BradParticipantGeorge-
I believe the term brow actually refers to a set of loading timbers placed so that the logs come in above and then are rolled on to the timbers and off the ends onto the scoot or bobsled. I have had very good luck building brows in steep terrain; in fact, in most cases the extra slope facilitates the loading of the logs onto the scoot or bob. The trick is too make the timbers of the brow level so that your logs sit stable on the brow timbers before they are loaded. 5-6 foot lengths work well, and I try to use stumps on the downhill end to prop up the end of the timbers and hold them securely. Sometimes the hardest part is not the brow but getting the scoot or bob below to sit on the steep slope. I have used short pieces of round wood under the downhill runner to keep the sled roughly level, and then I roll carefully and use a stake in the downhill stake pocket on the sled to catch the logs and prevent them from rolling off downhill from the bunk of the sled. The biggest key is to locate your brow in the right place where you can facilitate efficient loading and take off for the horses. Ideally, the brow is just above a road or relatively flat trail. Fun to think about huge loads being loaded with this method before hydraulics were available for loading multiple layers of logs. When it all comes together it is a sweet way to load logs!
-BradParticipantCarl-
Any update on NE BWW or standards for getting the “Biological Woodman” certification up here? Thanks!
-BradParticipantWhen I was in Maine we had a number of pasture sections what were steep and a bit rocky. We used a small one horse mower (4 ft bar) on these areas. We also used a tractor mounted sickle bar for some of the flatter sections. And, we used a big string trimmer to knock back the grass and weeds in the really challenging areas, in addition to grazing them throughout the season. Many people laugh at the notion of weed wacking pasture ground, but I really think that tool can be useful is used in the right areas and the right time of the year, particularly then it comes to weed control. As others said here, I have never had an issue with mowing down grass and leaving it to feed the soil. That is a great strategy to enhance soil fertility, but you do have to do it when the growth is not too tall. Also, a tractor or horse drawn bush hog works well on steep ground, though you have to make sure you are driving perpendicular to the line of slop, rather than across it. I tipped our tractor over withe sickle bar, and though it was a terrifying experience, I was not injured nor was the machinery damaged (I had a seat bolt on and the ROPS saved me).
ParticipantAlso, I find that using a cart or arch to skid logs really helps, particularly in the non-winter months. The wood is up off the ground and does not dig in nearly as much, and the logs stay much cleaner.
-BradParticipantGeorge-
Bob and I are in the habit on building temporary bars on slopes that we then skid over. When rain is predicted, we reinforce them so they shed the water. We keep a pulaski, shovel, and rake handy on the landing and use them frequently. At the end of the job, we dig our water bars out deeper, reinforce them with small diameter logs, and or build larger broad based dips that can divert the flow over time. In short, we have found no good substitute for giving the trails fairly constant attention during the time we skidding over them. It takes more work but seems to pay off in terms of impact from water.
-BradParticipantKeep in mind, too, that a scoot gets the wood completely off the ground, which is advantageous when pulling long distances over flat or uphill ground. The bobsled works best when you are going downhill, particularly in the winter, but is more challenging on flats or uphill skids.
-BradParticipantAlso, beware of lighter hardwoods like ash, as they weigh so little per cord. It is nice to get some other species in there to add some weight!
-BradParticipantGeorge-
Pine pulp generally weighs 4700-5500 lbs/cord. So, if the mill pays $28/ton, that converts to about $7/cord. Not sure about hardwood, but you can look it up online and get a general sense of it.
-Brad- AuthorPosts