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Baystatetom
ParticipantIn my experience a team won’t have the strength or stamina to work hard enough long enough to wear down their hoofs until they are a few years old, so you have plenty time to think about. Way back when oxen pulled wagons across the country they used to put leather boots on them. It kept their hoofs from wearing down and was easier to deal with on the trail then shoes. I never tried such a thing but I sure its possible.
~TomParticipantWork with your future calves, make them pick up all four feet and hold them up. Learning to this when they are small is a big help when they are big. If you pull up on or squeeze their dew claws together they will pick it right up. I don’t think most steers need shoeing unless you are working on ice a lot.
~TomParticipantI was on a job awhile ago were I had a nearly vertical slope for 500′ or so. It was hard to walk up without putting your hands down. The cable skidder the logger used had to winch itself up the hill backwards and come down with one hell of a hitch. I kept thinking if I were ox logging that land I would run a cable up and down that hill with a snatch block at the top. So when coming down with a loaded scoot you could pull an empty one back up.
Where there is a will there is a way.Participant
Smudge the Pony of AmericaParticipantI would have to think a hybrid type operation would be necessary rather then strictly animal power, at least on most of the lots I mark just because of the skid distance. But like Carl said we have to stop thinking about competing with machines on their terms and rather figure out how to do the jobs on the horses terms. A investment in road building would defiantly be required as well.
ParticipantSo as a forester who puts to bid a decent amount of timber and who is eagerly looking forward to doing more draft animal type work; what do you all consider a reasonable skidding distance?, I know the topography and timber size play a huge role but whats an average skid distance? I know the average skid with machines but what do animals do.
~Tom
P.S.
So far I am suppressing the erg to start a new thread about government involvement in silviculture. But when I have my thoughts in order….ParticipantPhilG I hear what you are saying. I have spent the last two years working from Dec 1st clear through Feb 28th on only projects funded by NRCS. It has been great to know that money is there, but I probably would have been just fine without it as well. I am not sure the goverment should pay landowners to do the work that a good steward of the land should have done anyway, but hopefully it got better forestry done on a few properties and helped keep loggers working when they would have been idle. I would hate to count on it long term though. That type of founding can be here then gone pretty quick. Not to mention it adds another layer of bureaucracy.
I like the looks of that wire crane forwarder, but I think in most cases around here anyway the up and down terrain would still mean a tractor had to be on it more then the animals.
ParticipantI have seen things like that before made from wood or steel. Heard them called log devils or go devils, never tried one though.
ParticipantWhen we get talking two teamsters, two fellers, and a forwarder man it makes my head spin! I wouldn’t want to be in charge of all that. You would become a manager not a horse logger. I have seen a number of guys who were excellent loggers with cable skidders think that they were stepping up by buying a feller buncher, then a forwarder, then a delimber and log loader, before you know it they have five guys on the payroll, the quality of of work drops and then they are out of business because of a negative cash flow. I would think the smaller the better. But what do I know I am forester not a horse logger (yet).
~TomParticipantI think you touched on a big part of it Carl. It’s the landowner, we need to convince more then the forester or logger. I am very lucky and never have to look for work anymore, much less have to travel more then a town or two away. But still I rarely get to work with clients who care about more then the bottom line. It does happen and some folks are happy to spend money on their forest rather then making it, but most often when I get called it is because somebody needs cash. I always listen to the landowners goals and try and explain good forestry first, then end up doing the best I can based on the parameters I have to work within. One big step in getting more operations like yours working out there is getting more landowners to be willing to make a few dollars less in exchange for your type of work. I don’t know how to do this. How do you change culture?
ParticipantLike I said before Carl, Your preaching to the choir brother! I am still not sure this can happen on a landscape level because of that whole supply and demand thing, until the price of oil shifts the scales into into the horses favor. But I want to do it like you because that’s the way I like to do it.
I am sure you have tried everything. What about making a portable ramp to roll the logs onto a trailer, then you save the cost of the log loader. A set of forks on the tractor could unload and sort the logs on the header.
~TomParticipantJust in case you need three people to tell you the same thing, storm damage is dangerous, and slow. If you do it at all charge by the hour. Take it from the guy who spent three months on crutches from a busted up oak tree, make sure your insurance is paid up.
TomParticipantFound one, 6 year old POA gelding right out of a summer camp.
ParticipantCarl it sounds like you are doing what I have been day dreaming about for years while out in the woods marking timber. I always thought I would have a high-bred operation where I used my steers in place of a winch, just bringing trees from the stump to the closest place I could easily get a tractor.
Down here in Mass. our Endangered Species people can make it quite difficult to work within supposed rare habitat. For example in box turtle habitat (the most common land turtle in North America) we must layout skid trails which the equipment cannot leave, then winch the trees to the skid trails. The skid trails cannot cover more then a small percentage of the habitat area. In other cases the presence of dragon flies or salamanders requires a 70% crown cover be retained.
It is very difficult to work on these properties but it would be perfect for the type of operation your describing. Just another niche waiting for us!
~TomParticipantI love it. Been wanting to make my own video as a tribute to Carl’s “Behind the Lines” but you did a better job then I could have.
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