[Baystatetom]

I forget the guys name but I heard a professor from U of Vermont speak about energy and oil. It was the same guy who wrote the book “reading the forested landscape” he had a lot of great points. Actually it radically changed my way of thinking. I’ll try and find his info. I basically now believe all the worlds problems are connected to oil. Not that I have changed my behavior, but now I know how dumb we all are about it.
PhilG, I have been the forester responsible for green certifying several properties and I can tell you the only difference between them and any other is about 30 pages of paper. Massachusetts has super strict harvesting laws though, almost every harvest here meets or exceeds the criteria. That may not be the case elsewhere. I am putting together a sawmill now and hoped to produce green certified lumber but the fact is no matter how good a job I do harvesting I just cannot afford cost of the green cert label. My take as a boots in the woods forester is that it is merely a marketing scheme. Like I said though in areas where the laws are more relaxed it may actually be a higher standard.

[Baystatetom]

Thanks for posting that Tim, it was interesting. Hey Mitch next your going to tell me she moved there from Massachusetts. If nothing else at least she is willing to put her money where her mouth is. The most of the trouble started when we began importing pulp from overseas. Disgusting as it is they can ship pulp here from places like Indonesia, china, and the Philippines cheaper then it can be produced in Maine.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

My first reaction when I see stuff like this is that these people are not foresters or loggers. They often have no education in the field and are quite closed minded in their views. Rather then try and learn why things happen they choose to rebel against them without a complete understanding. I would liken it to somebody who saw a horse get slapped a few times at a pulling contest, who then turns around and says that the use of draft animals is cruel.
Not to say that they could never have a good point to make, I just don’t agree with extreme views on either side of any argument.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

One man and a cable skidder is still $100/mbf here. Feller bunchers, chippers and multiple forwarders are defiantly more but I really don’t care for the job they do.
I agree every job is an improvement harvest. Start with the worst first, its just a matter of the taking the worst 10%, 20%, 30%….. If the LO has to keep gram-ma in the nursing home its more like 60 or 70%. I painted timber for 6 hours today and never painted a single sawlog, the parameters in which we have to work can change on every job.

[Baystatetom]

Plumbers, electricians, etc. all charge at least $75/hour in my area. Foresters and loggers also have a highly skilled job requiring years of training, education and specialized tools. Why shouldn’t they demand those rates? I never value myself that high because I feel like I should make a honest days pay for an honest days work, no more no less.

[Baystatetom]

You make a good point Carl in that if you are doing a precommercial thinning and/or improvement harvest then indeed the stumpage value to the landowner should be down around $20-$30/mbf. In fact that type of work often cost the LO money, paying anything at all is pretty good. I could say that I routinely sell stumpage white pine for $100, red oak for $350, and have been getting north of $50 for hemlock lately. But that wouldn’t be comparing apples to apples. Those jobs remove 3-5 mbf per acre. And yes no matter how good and careful the logger regen gets squished, trees get barked up and ruts get made.
I still believe I do good work and in the long term the properties I work on will be better off then when I started, but you are providing a different service to the client. The LO has to make the choice which fork in the skid road to take.
To compare things with machinery I hear logging cost from loggers ranging from $90 -$120/mbf. So for white pine paying $220/mbf loaded on a trailer, the LO gets $90-$130/mbf. BUT they are not doing the job Carl is talking about. I still am not not convinced its better or worse but defiantly different.
I look forward more and more everyday to hitting the woods with my steers but one thing I still struggle with is how to deal with all that low value wood. I bet six out of every ten trees I mark for harvest are hemlocks. They pay $160/mbf delivered to the local mills and it’ll cost $50 to get there. Can I find enough landowners to give away there timber so I can break even, or pay money out of pocket on top of the timber?
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

With experience you will learn to recognize the signals that they are about to run, and you will be able to stop them before they start. In the mean time, don’t give up!
`Tom

[Baystatetom]

@mitchmaine 29378 wrote:

i remember thirty five years ago, one fella driving clear to michigan to buy a horse, gave $16,000. to match another horse so he could win a blue ribbon and the forty dollar premium that went with it. never made sense to me, but entertainment comes at a cost up here in the winter.

We all have our vices, some drink, some smoke or gamble, and some of us have draft animals.

[Baystatetom]

I weighed in fifty pounds high one time and just brought my steers for a mile long jog, when I hit the scales a half hour later they were 100 pounds lighter. I hate buying a bag a week! Never mind a bag a day.

[Baystatetom]

I did keep a pair of herford/holsiens until they were 6, other then that I never had a pair above age 4. The smaller younger teams were better for the 4H stuff. I can say however that my teams are always well fed. Like you I want to do real work with them as soon as possible so I am hoping good pasture and high protein grain will make them bigger faster. My pasture is a mile from my barn so once they are out, they are out for the summer. Guys who are into pulling definitely limit feed to try and stay in the lowest weight class possible. Those oxen look like professional athletes with a very low fat percentage (then again they are athletes). I only grain mine in the winter, when the pasture looks good that’s all they get. Just work them hard and they will stay in shape. I know a guy that bought a 4000 pound team of shorthorns and got them done to 3200 in two months just by dragging a tractor tire around his field everyday. Not sure but he might have lost a couple pounds too.
I know very little about horses but if you hand me the reins I can drive better then somebody who has never had draft animals for sure. The demeanor of the teamster and the sound of your voice are the most important things if you ask me, and that should be the same.

[Baystatetom]

Not sure what putting them out overnight would accomplish. I put bells on my daughters team and the neighbors asked me to take them off because they evidently walked around all night long, I would assume grazing.
In my opinion even the most nervous cattle breeds are still more even keeled then the average horse. If you are used to working with horses you should have a easy transition. I have always wanted ayrshires myself mostly because I like the way they look. When I had 4H oxen as a kid somebody had a mature pair they brought around to all the fairs and I always loved them. I just thought with my little kids always running around I shouldn’t get a breed known for being jumpy, maybe the next ones though.

[Baystatetom]

Between Rural Heritage and pullingoxen.com there is plenty of broke teams out there. Usually New England is full of teams for sale in the fall when 4Hers head off to college. If you are used to draft horses you can transition into oxen pretty easily I bet.

[Baystatetom]

You can work year old steers for a couple hours no problem. I plowed with mine this past spring when they were 14 months, although it certainly was pretty close to their maximum payload. I also pulled two families worth of firewood with them their first winter. As they get bigger and stronger working with them gets easier though. I am betting I can do a much better plowing job this spring then last. My Holstein/shorthorns are about 1100 each at 19 months. I pull a scoot with 1600 lbs on it for about a half hour to exercise them, I am sure I could get a good bit of work out of them. Just my real job keeps getting in the way!

[Baystatetom]

I am sure they would get it if I kept with it. They did a lot better after just a half hour, I am just not sure that it is any faster or easier then any other solution to slowing down that off steer.
My last team learned unbelievably quick, I bet I could have switched them around with out hardly missing a step, but they would quit on me when loaded heavy. These guys are strong as hell, but don’t listen quite as good. Always a trade off I suppose.
Would still love advice on how to slow down that fast steer if anybody knows.
~Tom

[Baystatetom]

Its never a waist of time to learn something new. Even if you beef them right off you will have gained some experience.
~Tom
Andy I think your statements are pretty much correct. I also think they slow down as they get older. My team is pretty fast, and I like it that way 90% of time, making sharp corners around trees and stumps when pulling logs is the 10% I wish they would slow up a bit. The more you work with them the slower they get as well. If they stand around for a week without being in the yoke you can plan on a brisk walk.

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